About Grandia III

Chrono_Misjudged · Post by **Chrono_Misjudged** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:15 pm

Hello freakis, I have a lot of doubts about this wondrous game named Grandia III. First and foremost, I have to tell that I´m not an english speaker, I mean that I´m from Spain and perhaps my english isn't as good as yours. About Grandia III I have to ask whether is a turn-based RPG game, an Action RPG or a specific mix of RPGs types. I saw trailers in which the characters seemed to enjoy dynamic action battles against enemies, but in an article I read, it told that Grandia III is based in turns.
I'd like to find out whether is an action, turn-based or a mix RPG type and what about the opinions of the gamers that played it :
Is a good game? Is this story interesting? etc....

Calbrena · Post by **Calbrena** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:46 pm

Haven't played Grandia III but to answer your other question the text that appears under your username is just your current rank, determined by your post count and it will change if you post more. By the way you can update your profile and get an avatar and a custom title by clicking the profile icon at the top of the page.

If you have any other question just PM me

Welcome to SG

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:58 pm

There should be a Grandia III thread, if you dig a bit back.
I know there are a lot of people here that have played it.

Calbrena · Post by **Calbrena** » Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:25 pm

Because I'm bored: http://www.squaregamer.com/forum/viewto ... randia+iii

Calbrena · Post by **Calbrena** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:57 pm

Just in case someone can help him I'm pasting this from his other spam topic but from now on I think I'm gonna move all his new spam topics to TBB...

Chrono_Misjudged said:

I think I've already sent a post explaining this but somehow it must be lost on internet. Everything is due to an O.P.T. - Out Of Place Topic -
One user from this forum advertised me and then I sent my topic here, but now this isn't the main issue. The main issue is to know in a plain language (read the topic above saying that I'm not either English or American) , from other users What is Grandia III like? I mean What about the plot? Could someone name any other RPGs with a similar plot in order to make an idea myself? I played a lot of RPGs : (Master System) Wonder boy; (SNES) Zelda, Secret of Mana, Tecmo the secrets of Stars, Illusion Of Time, Lufia, Chrono Trigger; (Genesis) Ragnascentry; (GBA) Golden Sun I and II, (PS) Final Fantasy VII and VIII, (PS2) Final Fantasy X, KH, Star Ocean Till The End Of Time, Dragon Quest VIII, etc...

C_M, I'd just like to point out that you're not the only non-native English speaker on this forum so if you want people to understand you you need to make short/well structured sentences. Also I think you should read the FAQ. Again, if you have any question just PM me or Damien, don't open a new topic (or open a new topic in the Tea and Biscuits Brigade forum).

Now, as I said I haven't played Grandia III so I can't answer your question, but I'm sure someone who's played it will eventually reply, just be patient. You might not know it but a lot of us are too busy to post regularly and it might take some time before anyone can answer.

Chrono_Misjudged · Post by **Chrono_Misjudged** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:11 pm

OK Calbrena, you're right and I´m patient, these lots of topics were posted because of many misunderstandings when I tried to post in the right section.

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:17 pm

Calbrena wrote:Just in case someone can help him I'm pasting this from his other spam topic but from now on I think I'm gonna move all his new spam topics to TBB...

If you do that, I'm going to post "Have some tea and biscuits

" in every one of them.

postcount ++;

Calbrena · Post by **Calbrena** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:18 pm

It's ok, sé qué es muy dificile de entender todas las cosas quando son en un otro idioma

[/bad attempt at using my Spanish skills]

Edit: Golbez, feel free to do whatever you want in TBB

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:20 pm

Maybe I can go to babelfish with my nonexistent Spanish skills and then travel to many Spanish forums spreading the word of tea and biscuit. My poor grammar will probably make it that much more powerful a message?

Calbrena · Post by **Calbrena** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:28 pm

Stop spamming GD plz

But yeah

Entr0pi3 · Post by **Entr0pi3** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:18 pm

I haven't played Grandia III myself, but from what I understand from reviews and video I've seen, it is not an action RPG. However, it is not exactly "turned-based" either.
It sounds great to me, as it gives you the opportunity to think and plan ahead when chosing the next action, but it's also fast-paced and adds a bit of action/timing to the traditional RPG system.

Field exploration and battles take place on different screens. Battles start when you touch an enemy on the field screen. You can press a button to attack the enemy by surprise (gives you an initiative/time bonus)

Once you are on the battle screen...
The core of the system is the "initiative list". It's an ordered list that says who is going to act next.
A similar list is used in Final Fantasy Tactics and Final Fantasy X (and, actually, other Final Fantasy games using the ATB system: from FF4 to FF9)

The "initiative list" system is not exactly "turn-based"
"Turn based" normally refer to battles that go like this:
(turn 1) every character makes exactly 1 action (the faster they are, the sooner they act)
(turn 2) same thing, usually always in the same order
...
Example of game using that system: Skies of Arcadia
(actually, it's an old system which isn't used too often)

On the contrary, in a ATB-like system, it goes like this:
[00:02] P1 1st action (P1 is faster, it makes an action every 2 seconds)
[00:03] P2 1st action (makes an action every 3 seconds)
[00:04] P1 2nd action
[00:06] P1 3rd action (P1 managed to play twice!)
[00:06] P2 2nd action
...
In this example, P1 and P2 are two characters (allies or enemies) and [mm:ss] represents "game time"
[spoiler]"Game time" can be different from "real time" : for instance, "game time" can stop during player input, and/or the game can jump directly to the next action with no delay...
To understand the different ways to synchronize "game time" and "real time", think about the differences between the battle system timing in FF7-9 ("game time" and "real time" are more or less the same, at least in active mode), and in FF10/FFT ("game time" and "real time" are clearly different: the action freeze during input, and there is no delay between inputs)[/spoiler]

So... This is the "initiative list". In the above example it contains only 2 characters, but it works with more characters: every one of them (allies or enemies) is just placed in that list, which is ordered depending on their speed.

Timing-wise, the input system used in Grandia III is somewhat similar to the FF ATB system set in wait mode: the action stops during player input, and once the player has chosen an action, the game plays itself in "real time"... until the next player input.

So what makes Grandia III system different from FF games?
Characters alternate between different "states" during battle, which affects the way they will react to attacks.
Explanation:
- Every character starts the battle in [normal state]
- Now let's say P1 is first in the initiative list.
If P1 is playable, the game stops, and the player choses an action among different battle options: combo, critical, special move, magic, item, defend/dodge, or flee.
=> P1 is now in [busy state]
Depending on the action selected, it will take some time before that action is actually performed.
For instance the character may have to run a long distance to reach the enemy he must attack, or he may need some time to prepare a special move.
Similarly, in FFT, spells would take some time to charge up, before they could be cast.
To make planning strategies easier, the moment when these delayed actions will be actually performed can be showed on the "initiative list" time-line (so that you know if the enemy will have time to react before your attack hits him)
- Once the action is actually performed, the character switch back to [normal state]

So, the funny thing about that "busy state" is that between the moment an action is chosen, and the moment it's performed, the character is more vulnerable to attacks. Actually, if he gets hit by a special attack while in "busy state", the action gets cancelled. And if he gets hit again shortly after that first attack, a combo is triggered. So, good timing is essential.

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:24 pm

I usually consider any system that doesn't allow a turn to be missed/passed over due to a period of inaction to be turn-based. Therefore, by my definition, FFX and FFT would be turn based, while FF4 -9 would not be. I guess that definition is nonstandard though.

Entr0pi3 · Post by **Entr0pi3** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:43 pm

Well, Grandia III would be "turned based" according to your definition, then, since it seems the game automatically freezes to allow player input when a playable character gets first in the initiative list: actions can't be skipped (at least not by mistake/inaction from the player) nor delayed, it seems.

I'm not sure my definition of "turn-based" is exactly standard, BTW

I see it as an equivalent of the french phrase "tour par tour", which I think can apply to video games, but also pen&paper RPG, cardboard war games... and even more traditional board games and card games, IMO

.
To me, a "turn/tour" refers to a sequence, which repeats periodically throughout the game, where every player gets to play once, usually in a predetermined order - which quite often depends on the way they are sitted around the table. Hence, a "tour" = synonymous for a complete circular movement.

Chrono_Misjudged · Post by **Chrono_Misjudged** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:40 pm

Very well Calbrena you master spanish language better than me the english. By the way Lord Golbez What a kettle of fish!!! What do you mean by babelfish? The tower of Babel?

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:06 pm

[spoiler]Calbrena is a cheating part-Spanish whore[/spoiler]

Chrono_Misjudged · Post by **Chrono_Misjudged** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:17 pm

Entropi3 Woooow!!! What a long explanation! you had a hard work to write all that!!! Excuse me if I don´t know all the RPG Slang (BTW,etc...) I named turn-based it because sounded like a RPG term to define the system used in most of the RPG Games. I think I've understood what you wrote about Grandia III battle system, I think its system is alike FFX which I played. I thought, by the trailers I watched, it was an action RPG, but now you're telling me the contrary What a shame!!!

I mean, I like many sorts of RPGs ( BTW, Action RPG,etc... ) but without any doubt my favourite system is Action RPG, What a pitiful discovery awaring that most of the RPGs aren't Action RPGs, I thought Grandia III and FFXII were action RPGs. At any rate I'm gonna continue playing RPG games in spite of being different battle system from Action RPG.

Before I end this topic I ask two questions :

Why the RPG Videogame companies don't make more Action RPG Games?

and

Why Don't you tell me something about the plot? ( Could you name a few RPG games with an alike plot or plot style? please don't spoil me )

Calbrena · Post by **Calbrena** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:37 pm

C_M, babelfish is the name of a translation tool: http://babelfish.altavista.com/

It's quite bad but it can sometime be helpful. But my advice would be to use a proper dictionary rather than babelfish

Why Don't you tell me something about the plot? ( Could you name a few RPG games with an alike plot or plot style? please don't spoil me )

Entropie hasn't played Grandia III so she couldn't say anything about the plot. But I know other people have played it *cough*Bee, where are you?*cough*, hopefully someone will be able to answer your questions...

Why the RPG Videogame companies don't make more Action RPG Games?

When you say action RPGs you mean games like Secret of Mana, right? Well, I don't know why companies don't make more action RPGs, it's a shame really as games like Mana are really fun... But turned-based RPGs and tactical RPGs are fun too

By the way if you haven't played them yet I think you should play Vagrant Story and Secret of Mana 2 (also called Seiken Densetsu 3), and maybe the Parasite Eve games, I think you would like them

Chrono_Misjudged · Post by **Chrono_Misjudged** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:44 pm

Calbrena you're right, I played Action RPGs like Secret of Mana, Illusion Of Time, KH or Star Ocean Till The End Of time ( probably the best system I've ever played in my life combining Action RPG, fights in the very style of most fighting games, skills, spells, combos, voices of the characters while they're fighting, etc... including also brilliant fanfares when they win a battle ) amongst others. I read something about Vagrant story, but not related with the battle system or graphics although I was quite interested in its plot, a rather interesting plot ( eternal life, conspiracies, etc... ). About Parasite eve I can't say very much except that I didn't know it was a square game ( although I'm not interested in this ). Everybody tell that Secret of Mana II (Seiken Densetsu III) is a 'jewel' that Europe has lost ( it never came to Europe oficially), I downloaded it a few years ago with my computer and it was very slow, the graphics quite well for SNES ( like Chrono Trigger, Illusion Of Time, etc... ) and the battle system the same as the other series of S.O.M., fun and dynamic. The plot few words deserve as far as I'm concerned.

Perhaps, for me, the best RPG game will have nice graphics like FFX, FFXII, Grandia III or DQVIII ( another style, Manga style ), its plot alike Chrono Trigger and its system battle like Star Ocean, KH or S.O.M.

But this is impossible or improbable that someone will join all this in one RPG, I will enjoy each game by its best and main features and characteristics.

OK, Ok I'm not a whimsical RPG Gamer, I'm only explaining my preferences!

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:40 pm

I say if you're this interested in a game, go and play it!

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:05 pm

Chrono_Misjudged wrote: Everybody tell that Secret of Mana II (Seiken Densetsu III) is a 'jewel' that Europe has lost ( it never came to Europe oficially),

That's what they think. In reality SD3 is vastly inferior to Secret of Mana in both gameplay and story(WTF? Does it have one? I didn't finish, but I got the Turtle and it still didn't seem to at that point). The boss fights take forever and get ridiculously boring, even the regular battles take way too long..... ugh... the memories of trying to get through that shit game... Granted, doing it with a keyboard didn't help, but there's no way a controller is such a magical device that it would make all this game's problems disappear. I bet if the game was released in the US back when it was first made, people would have shared my opinion.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:03 pm

The game was hyped a lot by various gaming publications (namely Superplay) over here.
They touted SDIII as the best thing evAer, probably because they doubted that 99.9% of their readers would ever get the chance to prove them wrong.

Entr0pi3 · Post by **Entr0pi3** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:58 pm

Hm, if you feel like playing action RPGs, maybe you should give the Shining Force games a try? The old Shining Force games on Sega Master System, Genesis and Saturn were tactical RPG, but the most recent ones play like action RPG.

Games such as Tales of Symphonia (on the Game Cube) are also pretty action oriented: it plays in real-time. You control one character at a time, and the others are controlled by the AI (but you can switch to cast spells and such), and you can trigger combos by pressing the right buttons in the right order, if I remember well. It's really fast-paced (and a bit too chaotic for my own taste, but I know some people enjoy that kind of system)
Similarly, Star Ocean games can be set to play in real time as well (pretty much like an action RPG, even if field and battle are separated screens), if I remember well.

Supposedly, some new Mana games should be released soon, on the PS2 and the NDS. I'm rather anticipating these ones

I particularly enjoy the multi-player aspect of Mana games (even if it had been somewhat butchered in "recent" additions to the series like Legend of Mana...)

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:38 pm

Children of Mana on the DS is out in English next month

Chrono_Misjudged · Post by **Chrono_Misjudged** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:30 pm

Ok I see you know a lot of Action RPG Games, but I think we're beating around the bush, What about Grandia III plot? Could Anybody tell me what Grandia III plot is like or list a few RPGs with an alike style plot?

I'm from Spain and it's unlikely that it is going to arrive to Europe, that's why I was thinking in buying this by importing it from USA and I have to find out whether I will enjoy Grandia III or not ( Knowing if is an action RPG and if its plot is interesting for me. Now I only could say that its graphics are very nice ). I read a lot of points of view ( positive and negative ) it would be good of you to tell me your own opinions about the plot.

Opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, opinions, .................................. I WANT TO READ MORE OPINIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way, What about telling me How Can an European boy like me play that game if our own systems far differs each other?

( In Europe we have the limited PAL system and USA has the wondrous NTSC )

Is swap method maybe the best option? or perhaps the chip inside the PS2? Are there other methods?

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:33 pm

Do you go on Spanish message boards? You should probably go there and post about TBB.

Jeff 2G6 · Post by **Jeff 2G6** » Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:17 pm

God this game is so boring. I finished disc 1 and I don't remember or understand a single damn thing that has gone on. The battles are ok, but it's the same as the other Grandias. The plot is so stupid. It doesn't suck you in and the characters are terrible. The only thing this game has going for it is the graphics. The music is terrible too. What a disgraceful game. SE really is a dog. Everything they touch turns into garbage.

Do not waste your money on this trash.

Entr0pi3 · Post by **Entr0pi3** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:47 am

Hmm, you'll probably need a mod chip to play NTSC games on PAL systems [spoiler]I don't think NTSC > PAL, by the way, they're just different video standards. NTSC has a somewhat higher frame rate, but PAL resolution is much better.
Also, the compatibility problem has actually nothing to do with PAL/NTSC itself, you know? The real problem is that Sony put regional locks on their games. The issue is not technical (it would be easier to produce region free games and system) but purely economical[/spoiler]Although now there are also special discs that allow you to boot up NTSC games on PAL systems, and vice-versa.

Having a mod chip installed on your PS2 can be quite difficult, I think. There aren't as many shops doing this as there used to be, and there can be problems depending on which version your system is (PS2 hardware evolved in time, and mod chips manufacturers had to adapt). And installing a chip cancels the warranty.
So I'd rather go with the boot disc option, if I were you, as they require only very little modification on the hardware itself (mostly, installing a flip-top lid so you can swap discs easily while the system is on). They're called [google]Swap Magic[/google] and they're sold all over the internet.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:58 am

PAL is > NTSC actually

Chi · Post by **Chi** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:07 am

I killed a PS2 trying to mod it... and before I had done any soldering (so I broke it just opening the case, go me)

I gave up trying to after that and just bought a Japanese PS2.

Entr0pi3 · Post by **Entr0pi3** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:31 pm

PAL is indeed usually considered superior to NTSC (at least when it comes to DVD movies), as the resolution is clearly higher... and as far as frame rates go, 25 frames/s or 30 frames/s doesn't make any difference when you're watching a film that was originally shot at 24 frames/s

And yeah, I've heard many horror stories on failed PS2 chipping attempts. Sony hardware is a bit too delicate to begin with, and it seems they crammed up as many components as they could in the little box, so even just opening them is quite risky

Buying one system per region is probably the safest way to go (but not the least expensive, unfortunately)

Supposedly, the PS3 will be region free. And somewhat backward compatible. I'm curious if it will be able to play any PS2/PS1 game from any area

(I somewhat doubt it, though...)

Chrono_Misjudged · Post by **Chrono_Misjudged** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:33 pm

Jeff 2GS dislike Grandia III maybe because he hates SE (Square Enix) then he probably have to post topics in the right thread (I think there's one specifically created for SE haters) or Do you like any SE game? in this case you have done well voicing your opinion here. I saw trailers from the oficial web page and I think is a good game (Graphics, battle system, spanning 2 DVDs etc...), the only remains for me is to find out : What's the plot like? I mean, maybe Jeff 2GS is right telling me that the characters are simple, or not (is his own opinion), but I'm sure the most important is the plot itself.

It has intrigue? or

Is it bloody predictable?

Is a little entangled? or

Is the plot quite simple?

Has it action? or

Is it a peaceful backwater?

By the way, someone explained me about Grandia III battle system, and by his explanation I understood that is more or less a BTW game (turns) but watching the trailers from the SE oficial web page I can't tell this exactly, because in the trailers, the characters seem to move all them in unison, at the same time, and in BTW system as far as I know this is impossible. What do you think about this?

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:05 pm

I alwasy think it's weird when people bring up games on the Enix side as SE games. I still basically think of it as Square and Enix. I never bother to criticize the Enix games much, because I always hated Enix games, while hating Square games is pretty new.

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:25 pm

FFIV-IX are time based. FFX is turn based.

Chrono_Misjudged · Post by **Chrono_Misjudged** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:25 am

coming back to the crux of the matter ( Grandia III ), it seem to be an action RPG ( I told us before that all the characters were able to move in unison something impossible in BTW games ) that's why I´m thinking in buying it, because I would enjoy very much action battles as well as very nice graphics something unknow, until now, in SE Games, the last games with cute graphics they've made lately, like FFXII or DQVIII don't have my favourite system: Action RPG, maybe FFXII has a mixed system but not an absolute Action RPG, this is the reason I think that I'll enjoy Grandia III ( if it's truly an Action RPG ) more than FFXII. Maybe in the course of time I'll make up my mind to buy both, Grandia III ( as far as I can see not dearly beloved by many of you) and FFXII.

postscript: Could anyone please spell BTW once and for all, please?

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:50 am

Grandia isn't an an action rpg. Similarly to FFX-2, Wild Arms 3, and few other rpgs recently, characters move all together. That doesn't mean it's action rpg though.

Grandia has always been turn based.

Chrono_Misjudged · Post by **Chrono_Misjudged** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:27 am

I don't understand anything. How couldn't it be an Action RPG or alike if the characters are able to move and fight in unison? is a very difficult for me to imagine that it isn't an action RPG with this characteristics. I played FFX-2 and the characters couldn't fight or move in unison.

Calbrena · Post by **Calbrena** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:15 pm

BTW= by the way

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:08 pm

Chrono_Misjudged wrote:I don't understand anything. How couldn't it be an Action RPG or alike if the characters are able to move and fight in unison? is a very difficult for me to imagine that it isn't an action RPG with this characteristics. I played FFX-2 and the characters couldn't fight or move in unison.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2e18nKFA9U

action rpgs have their own attack buttons and aren't menu based. You can have a fusion between menu and attacks, like in KH, but Grandia is turned based.

Tales = action rpg
Dark Cloud = action rpg
KH = action rpg

Because the characters move around doesn't necessarily equel action rpg.

Jeff 2G6 · Post by **Jeff 2G6** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:10 pm

The game got so boring and tedious that I finally quit after 11 hours in. I'm just peeved I didn't quit earlier.

I think I'm going to replay Grandia 2, cause it's 10 times better than this.

Chrono_Misjudged · Post by **Chrono_Misjudged** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:25 pm

Excuse me, when I wrote BTW, I meant ATB. I'm watching Grandia III videos right now, and I still don't know whether is action or not (probably you're right although some trailers seem to be ATB system and others not) but I'm sure I'll enjoy battles and graphics, they're practically the best I've ever seen.

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:11 pm

Trust me on this one. I've played every single Grandia game, with the exception of the new one. It's turn based.

Asaroth Larot · Post by **Asaroth Larot** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:09 am

I'll take Jeff at his word and stay the fuck away from this one.

Jeff 2G6 · Post by **Jeff 2G6** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:35 am

I just wish they could have pulled the plug after the first 3 hours cause that was fun. But after that it just went down the tubes. The game has nothing new to offer from previous Grandia games and the story is terrible. Sure the battle system is fun, just go play Grandia 2 then. At least it has a decent story.

Asaroth Larot · Post by **Asaroth Larot** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:41 am

Grandia 2 is the only one I've played.

I liked it enough that I gave a copy to all my friends one christmas.

Jeff 2G6 · Post by **Jeff 2G6** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:43 am

Oh yea not to mention the main character in this one has a dick up his ass. He seems to like it too.

Chrono_Misjudged · Post by **Chrono_Misjudged** » Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:01 am

For me Chrono Trigger has a good story (intrigue,action,etc...).
Star Ocean Till The End Of Time also has a good plot, at least until the second DVD, then the plot is turned into a plot for programmers (I suppose something like Hack) more than a RPG.
By the way, I read a lot of good opinions about Grandia III, maybe I'll buy it for the Graphics and battles more than the plot.

Square Gamer

About Grandia III

About Grandia III

OK

this topic is growing interesting

Entropi3 Woooow!!!

difficult to believe

Re: difficult to believe

confusion about BTW and ATB

stories