Topic 2G6-5: Death

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Topic 2G6-5: Death

Post by Calbrena »

As most of you probably know it's [google]All Saints Day[/google] today and the customs associated with that day made me think of death, mourning and rememberance of loved ones in general.

In France the custom is to offer flowers to dead relatives but personally I've never liked that custom and tend to avoid cemeteries where my relatives are buried. Not that I don't care about them but I don't really see the point of cemeteries (only like them for their potential aesthetic aspect), I much prefer the idea of cremation then dispersion of ashes to be honest.

So what I'm wondering is, do you guys think having a place where you can 'visit' your dead relatives matters? Do you think it helps starting the mourning process? Do you think it makes it easier to remember your roots? And when the time comes would you rather be buried or cremated?

This is not an emo/depressed topic by the way :p
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Post by Lord Golbez »

Hallowed ground is essential [/catholic] ! :frust

Um... yeah, I think it's important, although I don't know the last time I've visited a dead relative. I should do that some time...

As for me. I don't know. A spooky headstone would be nice, but they can cremate me and put my ashes in the hole.
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Post by Calbrena »

So you don't actually go to the cemetery every year on the 1st or 2nd of November? :? Because here that's what a vast majority of people seem to do :erm

Edit: The 1st of November is one of our national holidays because you see, France is a [google]laic[/google] country... :erm
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Post by Lord Golbez »

Uh.... no, I don't do that. I suppose there are probably plenty of people who do though.... I kind of thought All Saints Day was only a Catholic holiday though...
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Post by Calbrena »

Well I don't know, hence I posted that topic :p
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Post by Arashi »

I don't think I've ever really had to visit a person's death in that sort of way (regularly visiting the grave to mourn I mean) because most of the dead people I know of aren't that close to me. ... and thank god for that, I dont wouldn't want to anyway.

The idea of a graveyard just forces you to think about that person since they are resting beneath the dirt, which I guess is good. It's a quiet place and a grave is really the only physical thing they own now. In my grandfather's case though, they had to move his grave to some building and cremate his body after 10 years because they were running out of room in HK. D:

And I would like to be cremated.
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Post by Chi »

Personally, I see no significance in a graveyard, and tending over the relics of the departed. To me the memories of the people who are dead are more important than the decaying/mummified remains of their physical body.

I certainly don't want people doing that to me when I kick the bucket.

I've never tended a grave of a dead relative. I have a respect of graveyards, but that is twofold: 1) because other people hold respect for it, and choose to remember people in that way and 2) because it reminds me of people and their loss, and allows me time to reflect on the memories of people I've lost in a quiet environment. I'd view a graveyard holding my ancestors as no different to one NOT holding my ancestors in this respect.
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Post by Lap »

When visiting my Dad's grave I have to walk past other graves, old and new. The new ones look good, clean and well tended. The old ones are delapidated and no one seems to have touched them for 50 years. I find that depressing and it put me off graveyards. I still visit my Dad but not because it's the way I remember him or anything, I just go because my Mum wants to. And I don't actually mind it. There is a good feeling when I tend the grave and make it look all nice and stuff. Nothing fancy.

Another thing that bothers me, and it's something someone's already pointed out, is that graveyards run out of space. Kind of takes away the point of having somewhere where someone can be remembered.

I heard that in Greece they running so low on graveyard space that they've had to dig up half-decomposed bodies to make the plot free again. And people there won't cremate their dead because of religion. Not a knock on religion but it does make you wonder what their thought process is when they choose either to cremate their dead against their religion or have their dead dug up half-decomposed after a short while in the grave.
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Post by Lord Golbez »

All I know is, cremation is allowed by the Catholic church now, but you still need to be put in hallowed ground, not scattered at sea or some such thing. Greek Orthodox might be different...
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Post by Damien »

The more I think about graves and gravestones, the more of a wase of space and money I think they are.
Most of them are left to fade and droop, before finally crumbling.
I think a certain place that connect you and the dead person in a good memory is better than a grave.
A room, a park, a holiday destination.

At my grandad's funeral one of my distant relatives asked where my nan (who died when I was quite young was).
She was quite surprised when my dad showed her a random patch of flowers.
"No plaque" she asked?
She wanted to see an inscription, not remember a dead person.
I think in a way not having a certain "burial" place helps the memory, it makes you think yourself rather than just read.

Maybe I'm just talking shite though.
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Post by Calbrena »

Some graveyards actually look like parks and I like those. When I was in Hamburg I was staying right next to the biggest cemetery in Europe and it didn't feel like a waste of space at all, it was nice. People went there for walks and stuff.

I guess for some people it's important to have an official quiet environment where they can think of their loss, after all not everybody is lucky enough to live in a naturally quiet environment I suppose... =/
I think a certain place that connect you and the dead person in a good memory is better than a grave.
Same for me. I'd rather go spend some time in my family's holiday home to think about my grandad (but I don't need to go there to think about him, I think about him regularly) than go to a graveyard. And I don't really understand people who need to see an inscription or some form of memorial. Maybe those are the people who are most afraid no one will remember them once they're dead? :?

And personally I do think not having a certain 'burial' place is good (must be because I'm a nomadic person?) but I guess some people like having one. I think I'd want my ashes to just be scattered when the time comes but it will be up to my living relatives really, they will be the ones who need to come to term with their loss, not me. But I'd rather have no grave than one that will eventually become old and dirty because no one looks after it, which is bound to happen in a world where people keep moving.
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Post by Entr0pi3 »

Wow, am I the only person here who actually like graveyards? :?
... now I guess I'll be labeled a total weirdo/sick morbid person if I admit I actually willfully visited some, and reviewed them for fun with friends? XD
Seriously, very interesting places, they are :o
Don't you think pyramids and old tombs and such (eg Paris catacombs) are interesting, from a cultural/historical perspective? Well, same thing in my book, really. Graveyards, tombstones inscriptions, funeral iconography... they have it's many stories to tell (more than often interwining with History, obviously)

To me the idea of getting rid of graveyards coz they're depressing (people die, spoilAer. And yes tombstones get old and decay and eventually disappear just like people, but so what? That decaying process is also part of the story: dead people get forgotten, spoilAer again), or a waste of space, or whatever, sounds a bit like wanting to burn down a library or a museum, and build a mall there instead. Except worse.
...
I think it's important that a society as whole dedicates at least a little bit of place and time and efforts to their deads. Like, a symbolic way of saying how much human life is valuable (+ keeping in mind it's short, too).
A more "rational" solution would be to recycle the bodies, obviously... Actually I wouldn't really mind that, as far as I'm concerned: letting the medics picking up whatever organs they can salvage and re-use on someone else, then dispose of the rest in the most productive way, like making some fertilizer for flowers (cremation and burial in a block of cement both look like a bit of a waste of good material, if you ask me). A bit of an extreme perspective, I guess, I'm sure it would hurt some people's sensibilities, and I would certainely not want to impose that as a universal law, it's just my personal take on these things :heh
Anyway... Still, whatever happens to the body, I think it's also very important to have a ceremony of some sort for friends and relatives (and even a ceremony just for the sake of it - out of human decency? - if the deceased had no one). Plaques and flower and such certainely have little practical use, but as a symbolic gesture (the last thing you can offer someone you loved before saying a last good-bye) they certainely do help people deal with mourning. Rituals. Meaningless stuff if you do them just out of respect for a custom you don't really understand/believe in, but meaningfull stuff if thoughts and actions match and you really pour your heart into it. Obviously it realistically doesn't make any difference to the person who's dead. But it's the thought that count. And proper actions can amplify the thought.
... To me rituals (of any sorts) are important (almost "sacred", even if you're not into religious/spiritual stuff. If someone truly think a ritual/custom is important and meaningful to them, then yes they are, and should be respected, IMO) "useless" things (one of the many silly things human do that don't really make that much sense if you think about it, except it's what makes them human and not just elaborate thinking machines). But to each their own, obviously: burial, flowers, plaques, cremation, jar, scattering, big funeral party, alcohol, sex, whatever...

... I don't really mind, tbh. I'm flexible. As far as my own dear departed are concerned, I like paying a visit to my father's family tombstone from now and then when I happen to be near the area. Don't like doing it when my dad is around (like on All Saints Day), but the problem lies with him, nothing to do with my gramps, don't see why they should pay the consequence of me not getting along to well with their son. Decent, simple people they were. A bit on the traditional side (though I didn't know them that much), so remembering them by paying a visit to their tomb seems like the right thing to do. That's what they would have expected, I reckon. No reason to contradict their supposed wish.
My other gramp on the contrary got cremated and has no tombstone, not a problem either. There is the very nice place where his ashes got scattered that I remember fondly, there is the photograph I got from my grandma and which currently stands on my desk. I don't need these things to remember him. So far. But memory is a tricky thing, and it decays over time too. Having material souvenirs helps keeping in touch with the more abstract emotional stuff. Rituals and such can be seen as a neat memory trick actually, when I think about it :o

Then there is also the non-family people, like that friend/teacher of mine who died halfway through my last college year. Supposedly got cremated shortly after the event. Have no idea what his family did with ashes. There was another official ceremony eventually, and a plaque in one of the classrooms. I'm not sure he would have appreciated :heh. Some of the college staff at the ceremony I think he would rather have liked seeing dead (especially after the dirty messy business that followed his "unexpected departure"). But still, it was a meaningful emotional event for the students (especially those counting him as a friend), and that's what would have mattered to him most.
I don't really care about the plaque (it's a bit rubbish, tbh. However, no plaque at all would have been even more wrong, so... whatever), my memories rather lies in his crappy old personal website where I still come to consult some of his lessons for reference from time to time, and the other paper course material I still have with me (till I'll scan them)... + in the same old drink I'd have everytime he'd invited us to go in a bar, and in all the (good and bad XD) skills, attitudes, beliefs, work habits and teaching mannerism I seem to have partly inherited from him :}

So yeah, hm, I like remembering my dear departed... not that I have much of a choice, anyway :heh if I didn't, they'd still come and haunt me, you know? Ghosts, memories, same thing. Got to learn how to put up with them. Each in their own personal way.

As far as my own death is concerned, don't really care. Well, I'm serious about the "don't let these precious organs go to waste" thing (should make sure I have an official paper of some sort stating this, so that there's no misunderstanding, I guess :o), but apart from that, whatever seems most convenient to the people who will have to take care of the mess, you know.
... Though I guess I would rather enjoy the idea of my favorite people having a huge party of some sort XD (and then regularly having a drink together or something, and thinking about me, like for my birthday or whatever). But not out of moral obligation/mere tradition, now that's be pointless and annoying :o
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Post by Lord Golbez »

What? I thought I said I liked graveyards. I just don't go there often....
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Post by Calbrena »

Entr0pi3 wrote:Don't you think pyramids and old tombs and such (eg Paris catacombs) are interesting, from a cultural/historical perspective? Well, same thing in my book, really. Graveyards, tombstones inscriptions, funeral iconography... they have it's many stories to tell (more than often interwining with History, obviously)
Calbrena wrote:(only like them for their potential aesthetic aspect)
Isn't that me explicitely saying I do find them interesting? :? tbh I like nice looking cemeteries almost as much as nice looking churches. It's all about their architecture/design really.
To me the idea of getting rid of graveyards coz they're depressing (people die, spoilAer. And yes tombstones get old and decay and eventually disappear just like people, but so what? That decaying process is also part of the story: dead people get forgotten, spoilAer again), or a waste of space, or whatever, sounds a bit like wanting to burn down a library or a museum, and build a mall there instead. Except worse.
I see your point and I don't think we should get rid of them, I just think it's better when they're nice and can have another function like the one in Hamburg or like lots of cemeteries we've seen in the US.
As for the lack of space, it is a dramatic problem in a lot of countries. And even in some cities in France you know, like, remember how people living in Bormes aren't allowed to die? XD
Actually I wouldn't really mind that, as far as I'm concerned:
That reminds me, I used to have a donor card when I was like 12 but I'm not sure where it's gone and I'm not sure it's still valid anyway... But yeah, I think it's pretty obvious to any member of our family that we want to be recycled if it can help someone else.
(cremation and burial in a block of cement both look like a bit of a waste of good material, if you ask me)
Ashes are quality stuff tbh, as long as you don't waste them stupidly... Mine can be used to help Minty 3 or a cherry tree plz :ruroken
I don't need these things to remember him. So far. But memory is a tricky thing, and it decays over time too.
Which reminds me, I need to get a copy of Koro
my memories rather lies in his crappy old personal website where I still come to consult some of his lessons for reference from time to time
:}
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Post by Damien »

My nan's ashes are still in my parent's shed I think @_@
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Post by badisthebest »

AWESOME!!
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Post by Arashi »

Damien wrote:My nan's ashes are still in my parent's shed I think @_@
that reminds me of the story of Mermaid's Ashes...
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Post by Damien »

Arashi wrote:
Damien wrote:My nan's ashes are still in my parent's shed I think @_@
that reminds me of the story of Mermaid's Ashes...
How does that one go?
I don't think my nan was a mermaid :p
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Post by Patchingko »

I'm just wondering why I would ever have any idea what day "All Saint's Day" is? :?
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Post by Calbrena »

Catholicism being a major religion I thought most people would have heard of it? :? Especially as catholics aren't the only ones with special celebrations at that time of year... :o

Anyway, happy thanksgiving guys :ruroken
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Post by Patchingko »

Calbrena wrote:Catholicism being a major religion I thought most people would have heard of it? :? Especially as catholics aren't the only ones with special celebrations at that time of year... :o

Anyway, happy thanksgiving guys :ruroken
Happy Turkey Fest. :kitty

And yeah, in America, Catholicism isn't really that big when compared to the sum total of religions. In fact, as I understand it, more Americans are Protestant than Catholic. Not that Protestants wouldn't celebrate this holiday as well (I have no idea), but it's certainly not brought up in normal, non-religious conversation. I think the only major religious holidays celebrated on a national level are Christmas and Easter, and even those have been Hallmarked into near meaninglessness. Maybe other holidays have more meaning in more Christian areas of the country, but fortunately I don't live in one of those.

Once they associate some sort of cute cartoonish character with All Saints' Day, I'm sure it will become more popular. Perhaps the All Saints' Kiwi? :nub3
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Post by Damien »

^_^
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Post by Arashi »

Damien wrote:
Arashi wrote:
Damien wrote:My nan's ashes are still in my parent's shed I think @_@
that reminds me of the story of Mermaid's Ashes...
How does that one go?
I don't think my nan was a mermaid :p
I thought I read nun, and then i read ashes and I was immediately reminded of the story of Mermaid's Ashes by Rumiko Takahashi... I guess you haven't read it, but it's quite good~
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Post by eightman »

As a child I used to always climb the tree above my grandfather's grave. Never really had any major issues with it.

Personally, I haven't much care with what is done with my remains once I pass on. Bury me under a fruiting tree so my ancestors can eat me. Or craft me into a fine man-leather suit. Something productive anyhow.
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Post by Lord Golbez »

Speaking of death, you revived a dead forum, eightman. The only question is did you use a phoenix down, so it will die again immediately, did you cast Life so it has a chance but needs to quickly get some new revitalization or it will die again, or did you cast Life 2 so that it is ready to get back into the fight strong?
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Post by Anonymous »

That's the eternal question, isn't it?
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Post by Yuka »

The real question is; did it die in battle (and thus can be phoenix down'd/life'd/inn'd) or did it die in real life and is thus gone for good? (Hallo Aeris)
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Post by Anonymous »

Well it appears to be back, at least temporarily, unless this is a dream/flashback sequence.
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Post by Yuka »

Or... someone's using cheat codes to put them back in the game.

Oh the long gone days of the Xplorer cartridge sticking out the PSX and that funny little 'program it yourself' add on box.
Could never get that to work.
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Post by Anonymous »

Those codes always make the game start looking like total shit, though.
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Post by Yuka »

Yeah, but starting FFVII with 65535 Exp per battle makes speed runs oh so much easier.
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Post by Anonymous »

It sure does. Just make sure you leave Cloud dead the whole game.
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Post by Yuka »

I never got why if you included Aeris and Sephiroth at the start, the game froze up at cutscenes.
I suppose I never will.
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Post by Anonymous »

Just because you fuxxed it up too badly. Cheat0r.
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Post by Yuka »

... I never did get an impressive speed run in the end. I think it was 19 hours.
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Post by Anonymous »

That's crap. The RDM could totally kill that speed...maybe even without gameshark or whatever.
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Post by Yuka »

Hey, my easter holiday is coming up. Just gotta find me an old PSone memory card and fun times shall be had. The oven shall be fired up and there will be a never ending stream of mini pizza and beer and FFVII rushing!

... I've probably forgot half the game.
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Post by Anonymous »

If you're going to rush you're not exactly going to get the greatest refresher.

FFVII rush competition 2G8, anyone?
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Post by Yuka »

I'll play through normally to remember how the game works/puzzles 'n' shit and THEN speed run through it.

Then fail miserably and watch some speed run online that criminally puts me to shame.
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Post by Anonymous »

Someone probably did the whole damn game in 4 hours without hax.
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Post by Yuka »

Ever since I saw someone do the last Collossi(?) on Shadow of the Collosus in about a minute, I've resigned myself to the fact I will never be good enough to break any speed record.
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Post by Anonymous »

Breaking speed records? Impossible. Speedrunners are crazy people who need to be shunned.
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Post by Yuka »

For some reason, I bet they get laid more than the average person.
Just to further imbalance the cosmos.
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Post by Anonymous »

But presumably it wouldn't last long.

No wasted movement, and all that.
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Post by Yuka »

Sex speed run :?

To xtube!
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Post by Anonymous »

The RDM wonders what the record is...
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Post by Yuka »

Probably a guy who ejactulated after the woman says 'Hello' in a bar.
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Post by Anonymous »

That would be pretty quick.
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Yuka
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Post by Yuka »

... I'm now beginning to feel like Golbez here. :p
I've took his place! Except I am not the meTEAo script.
monsieur et madame, la parade monstrueuse!
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