Topic 2G5-7: Can video games go too far?

[man of txt]

Video games are getting increasingly more and more violent. In a few months a game called bully is going to be released (details below), and this has caused a great stir.

Are people making too much of a fuss over nothing? We see violence everywhere, so what harm can computer games do? Do you believe there should be more restrictions on the amount of violence in games? Do these computers games really inspire and glorified violence and crime, and even if it does this really matter?

discuss

Nearly five months ago Miami attorney Jack Thompson alerted national news media that Take-Two/Rockstar Games was going to release in October 2005 a game called Bully. Thompson had been called by a “mole” at Rockstar who had seen the March CBS 60 Minutes story on the triple homicide linked to Grand Theft Auto. Bully will feature the murderous violence of Grand Theft Auto in a school setting.

Since then, Take-Two/Rockstar has confirmed at E3 that it is indeed going to release this school violence simulator. Rockstar foolishly put a screenshot of students beating up one another at...
http://www.rockstargames.com/bully/scre ... hots3.html




Today the liberal editorial board of the Minneapolis Star Tribune has finally awakened and smelled the “Hot Coffee” mod cooked up by Take-Two/Rockstar and has written an editorial stating, correctly, that the Grand Theft Auto games, even without the sex mod, are not appropriate for teens. The StarTrib’s editorial points to the game Bully, about which Thompson told them five months ago, as the perfect example of just how the industry-controlled ESRB is the fox guarding the chickens. See this excellent editorial, five months late, at http://www.startribune.com/stories/561/5521501.html

[Questionmarktarius]

There's a fucking rating RIGHT ON THE GODDAMN BOX for a reason.

[Vibing_V]

Parents argue that they can't be aware of what their kids are doing all the time. Once they're, like, 12 this probably starts to happen, but not before then (or if it does happen at a young age I'd call that bad parenting).

As long as a youngster:

a) has a good upbringing
b) is able to distinguish fantasy from reality
c) does not have any strange chemical imbalances, learning disorders, or psychological disorders
d) is not allowed to play games of an overly mature rating (or movies, books, etc)

then there will be no problem.


This is a generalization of course, but it's what I believe. Maybe parents should analyze how their own behaviour affects their kids before blaming external sources. Since, you know, the parents are the ones who (in theory) spend the most time with their children.

[Joei]

what a boring topic for discussion

[Entr0pi3]

Actually this "Bully" game looks strangely appealing

Highschool is a already quite a violent, somewhat vicious social environment just by itself, IMO.
There are already tons of fictional works dealing with the physical and/or psychological bullying that can occur there (famous example : Carrie)
So it's quite natural a video game would eventually tackle the subject.
The question is : does a fictional work featuring violence necesserally glorify violence? Depends... How is the use of violence justified? How are the consequences of violent acts dealt with? etc.
In a video game, some actions can be rewarded, and some other punished. Realistic violence in a game doesn't necesserally means it promotes the slaughtering of "innocents" - nor the systematic use of physical violence against "enemies". I can imagine an highschool simulation where the player is given the opportunity to beat up (or even kill) school mates... and if he goes "too far", realistically ends up in prison or shot down by the cops (which means, game over)
I have no idea how Bully will deal with the subject, but it's too soon to tell if it promotes highschool violence or not (that screenshot where the main character is kicking some guy could be legitimate self defense, for all we know. Just because his head is shaved while the other guys are well combed, doesn't mean he can't be the victim of some aggression)
And even if a game offers the opportunity to commit morally reprehensible acts (and be rewarded for them), without having to face any of their negative consequences... Sure you might righfully question the game's ethical "message", and think its creators are sick bastards (or maybe have a twisted sense of humor... Can be a sarcastic "second degree" perspective).
But from a practical perspective, will it make people more violent, and have them act the same way in real life? If that person has not been previously instilled with some moral values, has zero natural empathy, and/or is totally ignorant of how the real world works, well, yes, probably.
But a responsible, mature individual won't change its behaviour just because according to some game it's OK to torture and shot down people.
On the contrary, such games often allows to "let of steam" (cathartic effect get's) : back from a stress-filled day at work/school, don't you feel better after shoting at some people and destroying random things? Better do it in a game than in real life.

[Damien]

I can't see it being a good game but little to nothing is known about it, and until then I'll have no opinion of if it's EVIL and should be BANNED.

[man of txt]

"If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music."

[Damien]

"If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music."

You're spamming your own serious topic

On the subject of Rocstar games.
It's amazing that a game that's been on the shelves for 9 months that lets you steal various things and attack/kill people in various ways, has been recalled for depicting the one thing that it is legal to do in the real world, have sex

The biggest outcry so far has been in Australia.
Neighbours isn't any worse than San Andreas. What's worse during your lunch, Seeing CJ blow the head of a cop or seeing Harold Bishop get off with an old woman with a bad wig?
I rest my case.

[Slashley]

c) does not have any strange chemical imbalances, --

Is there one teenager in a chemical/hormonical/whatever balance?

[Yuka]

'My timmy can blow up old people with a rocket laucher, beat people to death with a dildo, steal cars, drive recklessly, but I'll be DAMMED if he's going to see badly simulated sex!'

[Lord Golbez]

Heh. I think this is kind of funny actually. Then again, I guess I do think games can and even have gone too far in certain cases. Still, let them do it if they wish. If someone want to make a Sim Terrorist, go ahead for all I care(actually I confess I'd probably also find that one quite funny).

[Renge Ishyo]

As long as a youngster:

a) has a good upbringing
b) is able to distinguish fantasy from reality
c) does not have any strange chemical imbalances, learning disorders, or psychological disorders
d) is not allowed to play games of an overly mature rating (or movies, books, etc)

then there will be no problem.

But all that list does is reinforce the liklihood that a problem will occur with most kids.

Let's see:

a)if the youngster had a good upbringing (which is rare btw) it probably would not seem appealing for them to go around stealing things, mugging people, and treating women like shit in a video game world or otherwise. How many people do you know that play Grand Theft Auto:San Andreas? I don't know any adults that play it, just a couple of teenagers (with bad habits) have I seen play the game.
b)that is something that comes with age (and once someone is able to make the distinction between what is real and what is fantasy they play games/watch movies, etc. less because they are able to see that the "virtual experience" is clearly fake).
c)Chemical Imbalance? You mean puberty?
d) This is a problem because the ratings are not enforced. Clearly if kids were NOT playing games like Grand Theft Auto this wouldn't be an issue. The problem is they are.

I'm sensitive to this issue especially because I have seen and experienced firsthand that many kids DO imitate what they see on TV and in their games whether it is good behavior or not (used to work in a toy store). So when someone says to me, "I mean really, how stupid do they think kids are these days when they say thais is having an effect on their behavior?" And rather than answering it, instead I am reminded of at least 20 kids that I knew in the past that I can say "THAT one for sure!"

Of course, there is always this dilemma about where that line of censorship should be drawn. The way it is currently drawn is awkward. In the USA at least, if you take a virtual human, shoot them up, rip out their ribs, and drag what's left of their limp body around town in a game, people are willing to let it go without batting an eye...but if say, naked Yuka was a hidden sub boss, it would be banned from the continent (even if she was cute!). The case with Grand Theft Auto is indeed another demonstration of people not knowing where that line should be.

From Rockstar the issue is simple, they are interested in making money. They have made a fortune making money on "anti-morality" games that appeal to essentially the crappiness of teenagers that we will all fear (you bet) once we get to be adults with children. For them, there is no right and wrong, only profit and loss. If teens would buy a date rape game they would make it if laws didn't get in their way. My point here is that SOME regulation of content for companies like this is important. The question is, how much regulation? And does a game featuring school bullies go too far?

[Slashley]

-- If teens would buy a date rape game they would make it if laws didn't get in their way. --

Stalk & rape games own, by the way. I wish somebody would translate them. You know, so that I would understand the story better. Aside from the stalking and raping.

Japan makes the best games

[Renge Ishyo]

Well...each culture is going to define that line a different way for sure

Japan is a weird place, at one end you have a VERY reserved culture and yet extreme liberty is taken with their pop culture (in ways that America, with it's hold over Victorian values, would never dare touch), and at the same time you have weird rules for japan entertainment like "you can show a naked male or female in a comic, but only if you remove their pubic hair?!"

What sucks is that if degenerate games like Grand Theft Auto (and possibly this Bully game) end up censoring things, that could affect games like Metal Gear Solid, which discourages violence, but still allows for the possibility to do many violent things. I wish there was a way to distinguish between violence and sex as just part of a great game and violence and sex as the *selling point* of a game, but I guess there is not (the opinion on what is what would just be corrupted politically. As it stands now, the ESRB doesn't even bother to play the games they rate; they just watch video tapes of game footage...).

[man of txt]

what a boring topic for discussion

"If Pacman had affected us as kids we'd be running around in dark rooms, munching pills and listening to repetitive music."

You're spamming your own serious topic

Sorry couldn't help it. This quote jumped into my mind when I thought of computer games influencing peopel

I wish there was a way to distinguish between violence and sex as just part of a great game and violence and sex as the *selling point* of a game, but I guess there is not (the opinion on what is what would just be corrupted politically. As it stands now, the ESRB doesn't even bother to play the games they rate; they just watch video tapes of game footage...).

Violence for violence sake is pointless I agree, (I did enjoy ripping off peoples heads in mortal kombat though)

[Renge Ishyo]

Mortal Kombat was another one exploiting violence over pretty shallow gameplay (hey, I played it too...I freely admit I was a dumb kid back then tho as opposed to the mostly stupid adult I am now). Once people realized the gameplay sucked, they dropped it and MK has long since died a natural death (yes, they are still making MK games but who really plays those?). Maybe the same will happen with Grand Theft Auto, and the situation will work itself out? I mean, how fun can it possibly be to "jack this fool and steal his lowrider" for the 9 billionth time? The novelty wears off, and what you end up with is a game that is about as exciting as going on a series of afternoon driving errands with the misses.

[man of txt]

Mortal Kombat was another one exploiting violence over pretty shallow gameplay (hey, I played it too...I freely admit I was a dumb kid back then tho as opposed to the mostly stupid adult I am now). Once people realized the gameplay sucked, they dropped it and MK has long since died a natural death (yes, they are still making MK games but who really plays those?). Maybe the same will happen with Grand Theft Auto, and the situation will work itself out? I mean, how fun can it possibly be to "jack this fool and steal his lowrider" for the 9 billionth time? The novelty wears off, and what you end up with is a game that is about as exciting as going on a series of afternoon driving errands with the misses.

hmmm... maybe.

But GTA is a well crafted game. Mortal Kombat was never that good. Every Fighting game fan knew this. The only good thing about MK was that for the 1st time you could really rub in the fact that you destroyed your oppentent by actually killing them off in the game too, or even worse turning them into a baby




Wasn't this the 1st game to be giving a age certificate in the UK

[Vibing_V]

As long as a youngster:

a) has a good upbringing
b) is able to distinguish fantasy from reality
c) does not have any strange chemical imbalances, learning disorders, or psychological disorders
d) is not allowed to play games of an overly mature rating (or movies, books, etc)

then there will be no problem.

But all that list does is reinforce the liklihood that a problem will occur with most kids.

Let's see:

a)if the youngster had a good upbringing (which is rare btw) it probably would not seem appealing for them to go around stealing things, mugging people, and treating women like shit in a video game world or otherwise. How many people do you know that play Grand Theft Auto:San Andreas? I don't know any adults that play it, just a couple of teenagers (with bad habits) have I seen play the game.
b)that is something that comes with age (and once someone is able to make the distinction between what is real and what is fantasy they play games/watch movies, etc. less because they are able to see that the "virtual experience" is clearly fake).
c)Chemical Imbalance? You mean puberty?
d) This is a problem because the ratings are not enforced. Clearly if kids were NOT playing games like Grand Theft Auto this wouldn't be an issue. The problem is they are.

I'm sensitive to this issue especially because I have seen and experienced firsthand that many kids DO imitate what they see on TV and in their games whether it is good behavior or not (used to work in a toy store). So when someone says to me, "I mean really, how stupid do they think kids are these days when they say thais is having an effect on their behavior?" And rather than answering it, instead I am reminded of at least 20 kids that I knew in the past that I can say "THAT one for sure!"

And who sits their children in front of the tv as a babysitter? PARENTS. That's what I'm saying. Though I guess you could blame modern socio-economic conditions for a rise in single parent households thus leading to more babysitting (or tv watching). (As a side note this coincides with the obesity 'epidemic' hitting north america, because kids learn that it's okay to sit on their asses watching tv all day instead of getting out and playing sports or whatever.)

I'm just tired of irresponsible parents scapegoating games/tv/school/etc. Not saying that bad parenting is the only factor, but I mean, if you don't even have enough time/interest to make sure your child isn't doing/watching things they aren't supposed to be then chances are you're being a bad influence in several ways, not just the obvious slip of an M-rated game into underaged hands.

Do people at game stores and rental stores actually give a shit though? Do they check for ID every time they sell an M or 18+ game?


I also think it's interesting to see such a strong dichotomy on this issue. Society eats this stuff up (violence/sex/drugs/etc) but also pushes it down.

I'm probably not making sense. I'm sleepy.

[man of txt]

Do people at game stores and rental stores actually give a shit though? Do they check for ID every time they sell an M or 18+ game?

I actually saw a guy being asked for ID. He was in the quesue infront of me and was buying GTA SA, he looked about 16 and the clerk turned him down. The kid looked like he was gonna cry. I thought it was the funniest thing

[Renge Ishyo]

Vibing, I know I am going against the "video game defense" grain on here by mentioning this, but what parents can do to control their kids (at least once they get old enough to go to gradeschool) is limited. Once they are in school they are going to be "exposed" to what other kids do in school and they are going to do it too (or risk becoming a loser recluse like me...video games were not popular when I was in school and when I started watching anime neither was it, we were practically "star trek" people for doing this stuff in the early 90's). If you try to stop kids from doing what they want to do, they will simply do it anyways and lie behind your back. Then you will lose ANY hope of helping your kid because they will "turn you off" since they already have in the back of their mind that they have to work behind you to have fun.

This is the typical pattern, it just becomes more obviously a problem when you see teens doing this as opposed to the under 10 set because they are bigger, louder, and definately hardest to control then (but actually that is there when they are younger too, it takes a long time for "kids" to learn why they should trust their parents...I didn't learn it until my mid 20's). Was anybody not like this when they were kids? I don't like to admit it, but I lied to my parents about how I spent money when i would drop $10 in the arcade or would go over to a friend's house to "study" when in reality we would play his new game. My parents couldn't stop me until I stopped myself (and they tried). I can understand how a parent can be unsuccessful even if they tried to put their foot down and tell their kid to stop. If you tell your kid they can't have Grand Theft Auto they will simply play it at Johnny's house (in the same way that I played SNES at my buddy Tim's house since my parents said I couldn't have one).

I also think it's interesting to see such a strong dichotomy on this issue. Society eats this stuff up (violence/sex/drugs/etc) but also pushes it down.

You are right, the ridiculously large amount of sales are what created such a widespread outcry. Not many people protested that BMX stripper game because nobody bought it. People rushed out and bought San Andreas in droves and it's only after the fact that the public is actually outraged by it.

[Vibing_V]

I agree that parents don't have total control over what their kids do. But do you mean to tell me that if little 8 year old Bobby can't play GTA at his own house that he's going to be able to go play it at his friend's house? And how the hell did Bobby's little 8 year old friend get the game?

Up to about the age of 10 a parent should have a high enough level of involvement & awareness of their child's life to prevent them access to M-rated games. Teens are a totally different story. But really, if by the age of 15 you don't know that gang wars, drugs, rape, murder etc are things to avoid (and/or can't distinguish fantasy from reality) then I believe that is called survival of the fittest.

No it's not only the parents. But then, can you say that increasing youth violence (I don't know if it is increasing or not, just an example) is only the result of violent games? I'd say it's society as a whole - ever increasing gape between rich and poor, single parent and two income households, tv stations airing COPS right after the prime time news hour...

There is never any single cause for anything. So you can't tell me that bullying only happens in real life because it happens in games; the games are a reflection of society (and as you mentioned, violence sells so wtf?). And you can't tell me that little 8 year old kids playing violent games is the fault of the game.


You know, I don't think I've seen the same kind of flack on movies, which are also rated into different categories, and which also display violent & illegal content. I'm sure they do but not to the same extent. (Or maybe I'm just not paying attention. ) Interesting?

[Renge Ishyo]

But do you mean to tell me that if little 8 year old Bobby can't play GTA at his own house that he's going to be able to go play it at his friend's house?

Errr, yes that's exactly what I am saying. My parents didn't want me playing games at all, and when I would go over to my friends houses that is practically all we would do over there. You can't keep your kid in a bubble, I know probably neither of us have one yet (at least I am hoping I don't) so I can't claim experience but I have dealt with kids at a job and have speant time training dogs and I know there is only so much you can do and they really have to meet you the rest of the way. That's generally the problem, even if you do make the decision not to expose your kids to this stuff too early all they need to do is find a friend with parents who don't care and poof, your kid is playing the game too (just like that).

As for whether or not youth violence would exist without video games, of course it would (it has existed since the dawn of humanity and video games, movies, what have you have only been around for less than a century). That's not really the question, the question is if you wanted to raise your kids "right" would you be for or against games that *make a point* of going against the values you are trying to encourage your child to follow? I will give you an example, when I worked in a toy store a kid came in quoting clerks or something because he thought it was a cool movie. This could just be me, but seeing an 8 year old kid prounce around proud of himself saying "fuck this bitch! Fuck that bitch! I'll fuck anything that moves!" with a great big smile on his face because he thinks that is "cool" horrified me. That's all I am really saying. Until I have a kid myself I probably can't develop much more of a feeling on the issue than that.

Movies though are a different story, the ratings system in movies does keep a lot of film makers in check because they are enforced more regularly which also affects what kind of films are made. A lot of film makers do tone down their films to try and get PG-13 ratings to reach the dumb...errr, sorry..."target" teenage audience since sales are almost always lower for R rated films. Practically the only deterrant for releasing an M-rated game is that some retailers would refuse to stock it and even those make exceptions for games like San Andreas that sell well. I think if they made it so that their was a fine to a retailer if they were caught selling games to kids (like they do with cigarettes), companies wouldn't be able to take advantage of the situation and release "adult" content intended for kids like they do now with games. Make it harder to make money with these types of games, and you'll have people think twice before they crank out the sleeze. That's what I think at least.

[Vibing_V]

You say you played games at a friend's house. Were they M or 18+ games?

I wasn't using the existence of youth violence as an example, but an increase. We know violence has pretty much always existed.

I agree with you on most of what you're saying, but you make it sound like parenting is a pointless endeavour. (I hope this is just the tilt of your argument and not what you actually think.) Like since kids will do what they will do there's no point in a parent, you know, telling them its wrong or punishing them or trying to guide them in the right direction. No it doesnt always work but IMO there's no excuse for parents being lazy. In most cases the simple fact that they actually care about what their kids are doing will make a difference. But to not react to bad behaviour is like condoning it in developing children.

It's funny how there' such an uproar, and has been for years, yet not much has been done about it. lawl. I was thinking that it might be easier for movies since, as you mentioned, it's probably more strictly enforced. I also can't help but wonder if it has to do with the integration of movies in society. Movies have been around for a long time, video games are relatively new and as we know older people *tend* not to like change,a nd it's probably hard for them to relate to something they never had when they were younger, so it probably makes it easier to target something that is foreign.

whee

[Renge Ishyo]

Hey no fair, when I was a kid M-rated games didn't exist! I did play Mortal Kombat, watched R rated movies, saw my first porn, etc. etc. while over with friends while my parents weren't around and there wasn't much they could do if they disapproved of any of it. It doesn't mean they didn't care about me or were neglegent.

Parents are reacting in the sense that they are trying to do something about Grand Theft Auto and the like, so are many in the government. Many don't like it because they consider it "going too far" to stop the games from being made to begin with as a way to solve the problem (and I agree, they have been successful at scaring many minors away from cigarettes and yet people are still able to sell them). I guess your stance depends on whether or not you truly feel that parents CAN stop their kids from doing this if they don't want them to be exposed to it. We'll probably only find that out when we raise kids ourselves, no?

As far as I am concerned, whether or not games are "increasing" minor violence is a separate issue and the evidence on that is unclear. Since we have had a couple of instances now where kids have actually killed others imitating what they did in Grand Theft Auto, I can say that it certainly has influenced the behavior of some kids and that's why the issue should not be brushed away so lightly...

[Vibing_V]

hi

[Renge Ishyo]

I think you have found the solution there Vibing. Get your kid to wear a dumb shirt like that to school. Have them get ridiculed and beaten up. They toss away the shirt and the game. Problem solved

[Entr0pi3]

Actually, recent studies show that youth criminality is pretty much decreasing since 10 years or so. Maybe the kids are too busy playing games to actually duplicate what they saw in the game in real life?

Yesterday, in a bookstore at the station I saw :

(The Economist : Video games = breeding evil ?)
But the article pretty much said the same thing than any serious article on the issue, that is : no behavioral study ever proved that violence in video games could make kids act more violent. Official statistics on criminality actually show that, since the last 10 years or so, kids in developed countries are becoming less violent. And some studies even tend to show that playing games could sometimes make you smarter.

Anyway, me think, if you want your kids not to shot down their teachers and school mates, you'd better not keep guns and ammo readilly available for them in your house, instead of focusing on "banning these evil games".
As for school violence, I knew some pretty violent kids, back then in highschool. Never played a video games in their whole life. Couldn't afford them, actually. And it's not TV either that taught them how to beat up other kids and stole their money. Some of the beating up part they'd learned from their parents, however.
Not that the rich, smart and popular "well raised" kids acted any much better: I remember one of their favorite games was constantly harassing and ridiculing some shy kids. Teenagers are just cruel like that. TV and video games have less to do with it than hormones.
Virtual violence is a water drop in the ocean, compared to real life violence, IMO.

[Damien]

2004, Society is in ruins
There's a war in Iraq
And guns on the streets
Suicide bombings, and children with nukes

There used to be order
But now, it's just chaos
As humanity crumbles
We know who to blame
Society's scapegoat
The video game

Fuckers, think back to Wonderboy 2
People's intentions noble and true
We played in the streets, played in the park
We never imagined a future this dark

When Torville & Dean were dancing bolero
Suddenly here comes John Romero
An unholy monster born from his womb
Dripping with gore, it's name is DOOM

Damien here on a noble quest
To put these evil games to rest
We'll stop them now, it's for the best
Before your kids are under arrest

Mario taught me to jump on your head
Half Life taught me that blood was red
Pokemon channel gave me a fit
Thrill Kill taught me that games are shit

The darkness in my heart still lingers
Track & Field destroyed my fingers
As a kid, my heart was pure
But it was soiled by PGA Tour

It's Halo's fault I can fire a gun
And now I disrespect my mum
Who have thought it would get this bad?
These games made me kill my dad

Ban those games
They're evil, kill them
Ban these games
They hurt our children
Ban those games
They'll be a killer
Ban these games
Like Mr Driller

My name is Chris, I'm a bit of a gamer
My friends all said I was a lamer
But those fags didnt know what to do
When I shot them in the face
With my gun from Quake 2

Bang!
It's a-me, mario
SNAAAAAAAKE
Get Ready
Action
Yah Yah Yaaaaaaaah
Plink Plonk Plink
Finish Him!


I used to do my homework, that was all
Till Ken taught me how to do a fireball
Playing with kittens was all fine and well
Then my fatality sent them to hell

These games are my world, it's all I know
It drove me insane, I'm playing Ico
Shaq-fu taught me the power of cool
Nothing compares to stabbing like Zool

You think I'm wrong, come down this alley
I'll shoot you in the face, like Colin Mcrae Rally
Last night, I went out and raped a jogger
It's not my fault, let's blame Frogger

Just last week, I was playing Pong
It made me go out, show the public my shlong
Immoral games, all filled with hate
Like John Madden and Fifa '98

Earthworm Jim loves animal cruelty
Metal Gear Solid hates continuity
Peter thought that Lemmings was neat
So he jumped off a building, into the street

I'm sick of this, we've got no time
Wolfenstein is a fucker to rhyme
Jimmy White's Whirlwind Snooker
It's evil.. but there's nothing that rhymes with it

Ban those games
They're evil, kill them
Ban these games
They hurt our children
Ban those games
They'll be a killer
Ban these games
Like Mr Driller

Video gaming is a crime.
Do NOT accept it
Join the daily mail, in their quest to ban EVERYTHING!

[Bazz]

2004, Society is in ruins
There's a war in Iraq
And guns on the streets
Suicide bombings, and children with nukes

There used to be order
But now, it's just chaos
As humanity crumbles
We know who to blame
Society's scapegoat
The video game

Fuckers, think back to Wonderboy 2
People's intentions noble and true
We played in the streets, played in the park
We never imagined a future this dark


When Torville & Dean were dancing bolero
Suddenly here comes John Romero
An unholy monster born from his womb
Dripping with gore, it's name is DOOM

Damien here on a noble quest
To put these evil games to rest
We'll stop them now, it's for the best
Before your kids are under arrest

Mario taught me to jump on your head
Half Life taught me that blood was red
Pokemon channel gave me a fit
Thrill Kill taught me that games are shit

The darkness in my heart still lingers
Track & Field destroyed my fingers
As a kid, my heart was pure
But it was soiled by PGA Tour

It's Halo's fault I can fire a gun
And now I disrespect my mum
Who have thought it would get this bad?
These games made me kill my dad

Ban those games
They're evil, kill them
Ban these games
They hurt our children
Ban those games
They'll be a killer
Ban these games
Like Mr Driller

My name is Chris, I'm a bit of a gamer
My friends all said I was a lamer
But those fags didnt know what to do
When I shot them in the face
With my gun from Quake 2

Bang!
It's a-me, mario
SNAAAAAAAKE
Get Ready
Action
Yah Yah Yaaaaaaaah
Plink Plonk Plink
Finish Him!


I used to do my homework, that was all
Till Ken taught me how to do a fireball
Playing with kittens was all fine and well
Then my fatality sent them to hell

These games are my world, it's all I know
It drove me insane, I'm playing Ico
Shaq-fu taught me the power of cool
Nothing compares to stabbing like Zool

You think I'm wrong, come down this alley
I'll shoot you in the face, like Colin Mcrae Rally
Last night, I went out and raped a jogger
It's not my fault, let's blame Frogger

Just last week, I was playing Pong
It made me go out, show the public my shlong
Immoral games, all filled with hate
Like John Madden and Fifa '98

Earthworm Jim loves animal cruelty
Metal Gear Solid hates continuity
Peter thought that Lemmings was neat
So he jumped off a building, into the street

I'm sick of this, we've got no time
Wolfenstein is a fucker to rhyme
Jimmy White's Whirlwind Snooker
It's evil.. but there's nothing that rhymes with it

Ban those games
They're evil, kill them
Ban these games
They hurt our children
Ban those games
They'll be a killer
Ban these games
Like Mr Driller

Video gaming is a crime.
Do NOT accept it
Join the daily mail, in their quest to ban EVERYTHING!

[Damien]

2004, Society is in ruins
There's a war in Iraq
And guns on the streets
Suicide bombings, and children with nukes

There used to be order
But now, it's just chaos
As humanity crumbles
We know who to blame
Society's scapegoat
The video game

Fuckers, think back to Wonderboy 2
People's intentions noble and true
We played in the streets, played in the park
We never imagined a future this dark


When Torville & Dean were dancing bolero
Suddenly here comes John Romero
An unholy monster born from his womb
Dripping with gore, it's name is DOOM

Damien here on a noble quest
To put these evil games to rest
We'll stop them now, it's for the best
Before your kids are under arrest

Mario taught me to jump on your head
Half Life taught me that blood was red
Pokemon channel gave me a fit
Thrill Kill taught me that games are shit

The darkness in my heart still lingers
Track & Field destroyed my fingers
As a kid, my heart was pure
But it was soiled by PGA Tour

It's Halo's fault I can fire a gun
And now I disrespect my mum
Who have thought it would get this bad?
These games made me kill my dad

Ban those games
They're evil, kill them
Ban these games
They hurt our children
Ban those games
They'll be a killer
Ban these games
Like Mr Driller

My name is Chris, I'm a bit of a gamer
My friends all said I was a lamer
But those fags didnt know what to do
When I shot them in the face
With my gun from Quake 2

Bang!
It's a-me, mario
SNAAAAAAAKE
Get Ready
Action
Yah Yah Yaaaaaaaah
Plink Plonk Plink
Finish Him!


I used to do my homework, that was all
Till Ken taught me how to do a fireball
Playing with kittens was all fine and well
Then my fatality sent them to hell

These games are my world, it's all I know
It drove me insane, I'm playing Ico
Shaq-fu taught me the power of cool
Nothing compares to stabbing like Zool

You think I'm wrong, come down this alley
I'll shoot you in the face, like Colin Mcrae Rally
Last night, I went out and raped a jogger
It's not my fault, let's blame Frogger

Just last week, I was playing Pong
It made me go out, show the public my shlong
Immoral games, all filled with hate
Like John Madden and Fifa '98

Earthworm Jim loves animal cruelty
Metal Gear Solid hates continuity
Peter thought that Lemmings was neat
So he jumped off a building, into the street

I'm sick of this, we've got no time
Wolfenstein is a fucker to rhyme
Jimmy White's Whirlwind Snooker
It's evil.. but there's nothing that rhymes with it

Ban those games
They're evil, kill them
Ban these games
They hurt our children
Ban those games
They'll be a killer
Ban these games
Like Mr Driller

Video gaming is a crime.
Do NOT accept it
Join the daily mail, in their quest to ban EVERYTHING!

u

[Renge Ishyo]

And some studies even tend to show that playing games could sometimes make you smarter.

If that's the case I'd be a genius by now Actually, the only REAL sure fire negative with games (aside from the issue as to whether or not SOME games are indecent) is that it steals time away from your ability to "do things" that will land you a house, a decent job, a fat happy wife, etc. For kids those things are way off in the future so who cares, but if you end up like me then you might STILL be in college at age 27 (which does have a "little" to do with playing games in my free time well into my 20's instead of doing the things necessary to get somewhere in life).

Either way, I'd rather take my chances with video game playing murders than err...video game playing poets...

[Slashley]

-- but if you end up like me then you might STILL be in college at age 27 (which does have a "little" to do with playing games in my free time well into my 20's instead of doing the things necessary to get somewhere in life).--

I intend to have you beat... current target is GOING into college at the age of 27

[Renge Ishyo]

Brother

It was Final Fantasy Tactics that set me back at least 3 years, you?

[Kakeru]

A couple things you guys might find interesting:
http://www.vgcats.com/jack.php
and:
http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/

[Renge Ishyo]

From http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/:

I'm sure most of you are familiar with Jack Thompson. You know, that powertripping lawyer from Miami who thinks video games are the devil, and solely responsible for human stupidity? The guy that blames video game developers when their customers create mods/hacks that add sexual/violent content to a video game. Because obviously it's the developer's fault that people are modifying their game.

The writers of these types of articles would be taken more seriously if they could get their facts straight. The developers ARE responsible for creating Hot Coffee; Rockstar created the mini-game as a bonus for completing certain missions in the game, and despite turning "off" the switch that would have allowed it to be unlocked normally, they left it on the final disc they sent to manufacture:

http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/15 ... 29301.html

All that the hacker did was unlock it by removing or adding the code necessary to do so and recompiling (a practice that is familiar as Hackers do the very same thing when they remove mod lock out codes from game discs and the like). If Rockstar had not put Hot Coffee on the disc *themselves* this wouldn't be an issue, they wouldn't be held accountable for a truly hacked version of their game just like Nintendo is not held accountable for KKK Mario.

I'm sick and tired of people like Jack Thompson always looking for a scapegoat.

Lol, but he's making Jack Thompson a scapegoat...in reality, this issue is MUCH larger than any one person (even if Thompson is trying to set himself up as the "new" Joe Lieberman from the Doom and MK days). It seems to be a problem that the people defending video games are not helping their cause by sounding brain dead when they speak out.

A more balanced article laying out the issues for ya: http://nintendo.about.com/od/gamingpoli ... allout.htm

Basically, the author seems to think this will usher in a crackdown on mods and hackers more so than a censoring of the gaming industry (and he might be right...after all, everyone needs a scapegoat...even Rockstar .

[Vibing_V]

Is haxing video games legal?

[Renge Ishyo]

It depends who's doing the hacking

A lot of people are acting like the Hot Coffee issue is "overblown". The thing is, this is NOT in the same league as seeing nude Sims with a hack to remove a blur. Check out a video of Hot Coffee here to see what i mean (err...if you are over 18):

http://www.gtasanandreas.net/news/single.php?id=1469

This is not some cheap user made mod, but a full blown interactive sex mini game. You have to keep in mind that regardless of whether or not someone found a way to alter the code to unlock this "hidden feature" or not, the game developers DID put this somewhere on a commerically released game disc intended for kids without telling anybody (which, considering the nature of the content, is probably against the law too...).

[Entr0pi3]

Hmph, it always bother me to see sexual contents censored while violent content doesn't seem to bother anybody. Which is more legal, though? Having sex with your girl friend, or shoting down cops? It's not as if it was a rape simulation...
Clothed people simulating having sex, seriously ... I've seen more explicit in countless PG13 movies/series.

As for haxoring games... is it legal? Gameshark and such are haxoring tools, but I've never seen anywhere they (or the codes they use) could be illegal in any way.
Game hacking is reverse engineering. From a "copyright" perspective, it might be legal in some countries, and illegal in others. In France games (being computer software, that is code = text translated into machine language) fall under the "author rights" legislation, just like books or movies or music. And, so far, you can do whatever butchering you want to a "work of the mind" you legally acquired the right to watch/read/play/listen to... As long as you keep it to yourself, and don't distribute it (distributing an hacked software is like distributing the original software = pirate edition). However, distributing only a patch might be legal, since it doesn't content the original work, just the instructions on the modifications to apply to the original work to get it working differently.
From a legal perspective, obviously the creators of the mods are responsible for their content (and not the game makers). But the GTA mod is a tricky issue, since the content was already within the game, and the mod just contained the key to unlock it. If someone was to blame, I'd say it would be either the GTA makers for putting hidden (half-published) questionable content within their game, or the player for using the mod and revealing the content (I mean they have no one to blame but themselves - the makers of the mod never lied about the nature of the content it unlocked)

Concerning addiction and video games, well obviously they can be addictive and wasting your whole life in front of a game is not "healthy" (socially speaking). But neither is wasting your life in front of your TV watching sitcoms, or in front of your computer, surfing the net. Or spending all your money in a casino. Or in the mall. Or working in your office 24 hours a day instead of watching your kids growing up. When it comes to such kinds of purely psychological addictions, the problem is more within the person than within the stuff they're addicted with. Usually if you remove that stuff they'll just find another addiction: it's the symptom, not the cause.
Games shouldn't be used as an excuse for being lazy
[spoiler](says the one who is surfing forums instead of writing her report)[/spoiler]

As for "game making people smarter", I think the studies tend to see a statistical correlation between "kids playing games" and "kids getting good results at school" : the "smart kids" play games. That's (or at least used to be - during the SNES era for sure, during the PSX era I'm less sure) a fact. Now, is it the games making them smart, or do they play games coz they're smart ? Or are they both smart and playing games because of the way their parents raise them? I suspect some studies to draw the first conclusion a bit too fast.
However, it's true some game do develop some skillz. Playing text-heavy games in a foreign language is a most efficient way to assimilate much vocabulary and grammar (although when it comes to translated games, the translation is sometimes far from perfect), for instance. Some sim games like Colonization and such, also contains lots of actual accurate info on the real world. As for games that don't simulate reality, they will often require logic to solve puzzles, organizational skillz to manage ressources, or just good old hand-eye coordination (which comes very useful in countless real life tasks such as driving).
It's no wonder some games (or similar, very game like softwares) end up getting used by the army to train pilots, or by psychologists to help a shy kid build self confidence, etc. The positive impact of some games on some people/in some contexts shouldn't be underestimated. Then, it's all a matter of balance (and there are always ways to misuse an efficient tool)

[Calbrena]

Ban these evil games.
That is all.

[Kakeru]

Entr0pi3 you should read this book I heard about a while back called "Everything Bad is Good for you."



EDIT: Actually this whole thing reminds me of a South Park episode from a while back. The episode in which the south park kids buy weapons at the carnival in town. While playing with them Kenny throws a Ninja star that lands in the very center of one of Butters eyes. Well thoughout the episode they do the most horrible things to Butters in order to keep their parents from finding out, and in the end they see Butters back at the Carnival, right across from the auction all the parents are at. Cartman "uses his power of invisibility" (or rather get's completely naked) and while staring at the audience of parents and television cameras. Of course everyone is staring completely shocked when Butters makes his way onto the stage.
At the Town meeting at the very end, everyone is upset, not about the kids playing with weapons, but at Cartman for showing the entire town full frontal. And so the kids discover that no one cares about violence as long as there's sexual stuff going on~

[Renge Ishyo]

Hmph, it always bother me to see sexual contents censored while violent content doesn't seem to bother anybody. Which is more legal, though? Having sex with your girl friend, or shoting down cops? It's not as if it was a rape simulation...
Clothed people simulating having sex, seriously ... I've seen more explicit in countless PG13 movies/series.

Different cultures, different social situation. Here in America you would not see something as explicit as Hot Coffee in an R movie much less a PG-13 one (hell, if you have a naked woman walk on screen for more than like 30 seconds, even if she doesn't DO anything you'll probably get slapped with an R for nudity). The most you will probably see in a PG-13 movie here is a girl in her underwear (if Naked Yuka came here, she'd unfortunately be banned). If ANYONE has sex with someone under 18 in this country it is considered rape, even if it's consentual. France is much more liberal in terms of sex, but they crack down in other ways that we don't...

There is nothing wrong with sex, but there IS something wrong with misleading everyone about what you've done and then lying about it when you're caught. If you were to make a game for consoles, you are required to present to the ESRB any and all questionable content on the disc so that they can assign a proper rating to the game. At first Rockstar tried to blame the whole thing on a "mod" and claimed that they had *nothing* to do with originally creating Hot Coffee, and it's only when a federal investigation took place that they started to come clean. Even then they still try to spin it to make it sound like they are not at fault. They are 100% at fault, and they are scum. You don't make content like that on a game you intend to sell to kids and then *leave* it on the disc unless you are a moron (speaking of South Park, a Tiger Woods game got recalled years back because some dumb programmer snuck an episode of the show onto the game disc without telling anyone).

Sex might be ok for us, it's not ok for immature 9 year old kids anywhere you go (as far as I can tell, that's GTA's prime audience). If that's not *obvious* then maybe we do need laws to say what's right and wrong, because the general public might not understand the consequences (remember, the goal is to have kids mature enough that they can make a concious decision about sex, pregnacy and the like and not end up pregnant when they are say 10 and not be able to support their new child).

[Vibing_V]

So... M-rated games are targeted at 9 year olds are they?

[Renge Ishyo]

Absolutely. The rating doesn't mean a thing because it is not enforced, anybody can buy the game. The biggest audience for GTA is immature young males ages 9-18. Ads and hype are right there in Gamepro magazine along with everything else and everyone knows adults don't read Gamepro. That's the biggest audience for games in general and GTA being a game is no exception. If the ratings were enforced and game makers could NOT make M games like Metal Gear and GTA because young people couldn't buy it you had better believe this would have a huge impact on the decision making these companies make before they release a game with something like this in it. As it stands, there is no penalty, so they just say "how unfortunate" and laugh as the money continues to flow it (there is no proof that Hot Coffee ended up the final version of GTA as an "accident").

From what I understand, the current legislators aren't seeking to censor games per say so much as they are seeking laws that would fine and punish game makers for exposing minors to games with this kind of content with them. They wouldn't need to censor, as the game makers would censor themselves in order to reach their target audience. It's the same issue as it was in the Doom and MK days, but the legislators are simply taking a different angle...

[Kakeru]

I feel that the reason the ratings on games lies soley with the parents who didn't grow up with them, and thus don't understand them. To older people ALL games are for kids so they don't bother to look at the rating. Thus is also the reason they look at video games as a complete waste of time. They've never played any of the new games, their experiance comes from pong. So they have no idea that these days, playing a game is no different than reading a book or going to a movie. And just like books and movies there are good ones and bad ones. But as I said, they don't see them as that which causes them to completely ignore the package the game comes in. In otherwords, they probably don't even realize that the rating is there and that it is something serious.

The only reason movie ratings are enforced is because they've been around since the parents themselves were children, and so they're familiar with them and the ratings on them.

[Lap]

In Super Mario Land 2: Yoshi's Island, there's that cactus character that bounces a smaller ball of cacti up and down, and both of them have a smile of their face. But then Yoshi licks up the small ball of cacti and the cactus slumps down and frowns.
Yoshi, the bastard, ate his playmate!

That just goes too far!!!

[Questionmarktarius]

To older people ALL games are for kids so they don't bother to look at the rating. Thus is also the reason they look at video games as a complete waste of time. They've never played any of the new games, their experiance comes from pong.

The flaw in this premise is the fact that the early videogames of the early 1970's were found almost exclusively in bars.

[Entr0pi3]

Oh, I totally agree the Rockstar guys are a bunch of dirty hypocrits and were fully responsible for the Hot Coffee mini-game being there. You don't program such a mini-game "by mistake". And removing it wouldn't have prevented the game from working.
Reminds me of another story involving video games and hidden sex. Don't remember the game, but there were tons of p0rn picture hidden on the CD, not directly accessible, but you could retrieve using a file recovery tool. This one was accidental, though, it seems (something to do with the software they used to burn the game on the CD : it filled empty spaces with files picked up from the developers HD )

We often hear of video games developers being threatened because of the content of their games, but what about the stores that sells games? Are there complaints against them when a store sells a M rated game to a 10 year old kid? I guess people would protest strongly against the seller if, for instance, they sold alcohol to minors... And if parents have their kids drink alcohol, everyone would (or at least should) blame them, instead of blaming the alcohol producer.
Of course some game company are afraid of losing young consumers if the age-rating rules were to be applied more strictly. But it seems to me that according to recent stats, more and more (maybe even most?) video game players are actually young adults (who might have less free time, but have usually much more money to spend on games than kids). So the impacts on the market might not be that big after all... unless for games containing "mature content", but targeted solely on underage consumers? I don't think MGS-like games would suffer too much, but GTA-like games might.

[Slashley]

-- Don't remember the game, but there were tons of p0rn picture hidden on the CD, not directly accessible, but you could retrieve using a file recovery tool. This one was accidental, though, it seems (something to do with the software they used to burn the game on the CD : it filled empty spaces with files picked up from the developers HD ) --

If I recall right, it wasn't actually porn in there. It was hundreds and hundreds of pornsite links, stored in a nice .txt file for future use.

I don't remember how they explained that though, the explanation you provided doesn't sound familiar to my ears.

[Renge Ishyo]

I think they are going after the stores selling games to minors as well (or at least I have seen it mentioned as an idea...forcing them to keep mature rated games behind the counter or whatnot), but for now that seems more like an empty threat.

Either way, if putting in fines for selling M rated games to minors means that games like GTA lose sales and games like MGS3 aren't affected at all then definitely sign me up for that!

In reality, I think games like MGS will be greatly affected sales wise as well, which is why I bring it up repeatedly as MGS is "maturity done right" and unfortunately would get dragged down with the exploitation games too should any of this legislation get through, I should think...

[Pendragon]

Here in America you would not see something as explicit as Hot Coffee in an R movie much less a PG-13 one

Watch Eurotrip or American Wedding sometime. Having only seen the mod video in the site you posted and not the actual mod myself, I can tell you that those R movies are more explicit than that video.

As far as Bully is concerned, do the fights really end it death? I assumed that the loser would go to the nurses office, or in worst case to the hospital... If you can really kill people in Bully, then for me that's going to far. Having said that though, I still think that Rockstar should still be allowed to release it as long as the game is rated properly.

I do believe that Rockstar is at fault for the Hot Coffee mod. I'm sure they had to be aware of the mod communities, how else did Counter Strike come about? Still though, an AO rating is going overboard, if it was a movie, it would be an R rating which I believe is suppose to be equal to an M rating. David Jaffe (Creater of GoW) himself said that if Resident Evil 4 were a movie, it'd be PG-13. Though I forgot where I heard it... Either way it's obvious that video games are held at a different standard. It's like the saying goes people fear what they don't understand.

Retailers should be the ones held responsible for enforcing the ratings, not the developers. That way when a parent buys GTA for they're 13 year old they won't have anyone to blame but themselves. As for what a kid plays at a friends house, how is it not the parents of the friends fault that their child has a copy? And why is it not the responsibility of a parent to talk to the parents of their children's friends every once in a while and ask if the parents monitor what video games their children can play? Is a 2-3 minute phone call every month or so really that big an issue when it concerns the well-being of a child?

From what I understand, the current legislators aren't seeking to censor games per say so much as they are seeking laws that would fine and punish game makers for exposing minors to games with this kind of content with them.

That may be true about Joe Liberman in the Mortal Kombat days, but if you believe that about Jack Thompson, you obviously haven't been listening to what he's saying. I'm not too clear on Hillary Clinton's stand on the issue, though. If anyone knows would they mind posting it?