Secret of Mana

[Damien]

There is no other info

[SpunkyMonkey]

that sucks.. I have been going back to that site for weeks waiting for them to say something else.

hey seedofmana i was wondering where you found out the characters real names. Ive never seen that before, granted I haven't really looked for it. And I think your web site is awesome. Easily the best Ive seen for SoM.

[Entr0pi3]

As far as I know, it's supposed to be a whole new Mana game, not a remake (which is good, IMO) :


Looks like LoM art style...

[Damien]

As far as I know, it's supposed to be a whole new Mana game, not a remake (which is good, IMO) :


Looks like LoM art style...

That's the PS2 mana game I do believe, not a DS game

[Entr0pi3]

Hmm, RPGamer lists these picture in the SoM DS directory.
But some other sites attribute those to an hypothetical PS2 SoM project.
Actually, according to this IGN article featuring these pictures

Further details, including platform, will have to wait until Square Enix officially announces this new entry in the Mana series.

And I don't think they have done so, so far, have they? They trademarked "World of Mana", but nothing is known about this game either, besides the logo (at least as far as I know)

[Damien]

World of Mana sounds a bit too much like a game I dislike

[Questionmarktarius]

I simply can't figure out why Squeenix's franchise milking fetish hasn't led to quick GBA cash-in on Seiken 3.


Or for that matter, Terranigma.

[Damien]

I'm hoping they will one day

[Entr0pi3]

If any Square games of the SNES era were released on the GBA, I'd probably buy them...
Especially the one never released out of Japan, of course. And those never released in Europe too. And even FF4/5/6, even though they were released on the PS1. I'm such a sad fangirl

[Damien]

The PS1 versions were all dragged down with loading times, though

[Entr0pi3]

True, but I think Chrono Trigger on the PS1 was even more slow loading. Made opening menus a chore.

[Damien]

Chrono Trigger was just
Unplayable even.
Took like 30 seconds to load the downtairs of Crono's house
I didn't play much further into it...

[Lord Golbez]

As far as I know, it's supposed to be a whole new Mana game, not a remake (which is good, IMO) :


Looks like LoM art style...

Holy sweet shit, that's beautiful. Hope the gameplay is not like LoM, which i somehow liked, but in spite of its gameplay, not because of it.....it certainly was no Secret of mana, but then neither were any of the other games in the series.

[SpunkyMonkey]

I agree. Though there aren't many games like SoM out there. There are the FF games, but they aren't the same so its hard to compare. I don't know if i would want the DS version to be exactly like SoM or not because I love the original, but if they could finally make a game thats like SoM and not the crappy sequels.. that would be awesome!!

[Wafflemang]

By the grace of god I hope SquareEnix picks up Hiroki Kikuta to do the soundtrack!

[Damien]

I'm personally more worried about the gameplay and story than soundtrack

[Slashley]

Oh bloody hell.


Am I the only one who thought of goatse when I saw that?

[Damien]

Oh bloody hell.


Am I the only one who thought of goatse when I saw that?

Haha, yes

[livewire]

I still own that game! Classic..

[SpunkyMonkey]

hmm.. never heard of it. what kind of game is it?

[Damien]

Racing

[Slashley]

Damien is a liar.
It's actually a puzzle game.




... or maybe it was an Action/Adventure/RPG game.

[seedofmana]

I heard they're making Secret of Mana VS Gran Turismo for the Super Playstation.

[Entr0pi3]

The World of Mana site opens!
http://www.square-enix.co.jp/mana/
Not much info but nice flash trailer, and Rabi icons

According to IGN

World of Mana will center on the Mana Tree and the Holy Sword (the "Seiken" of the Japanese title). The project hopes to feature fresh, soft backgrounds, personable characters and a new story surrounding the Mana Tree. Rather than just one title, we can look forward to multiple titles across multiple genres and on multiple platforms.

An MMO action RPG could be sweet
I watched a friend playing Guild Wars the other day, and I realized (never played an MMORPG myself) I don't really like the traditional MMORPG gameplay.
Having your character stand still in front of a monster, and attack automatically, while you select some skills to use once in a while? Boooring! If an RPG plays in real time, I want it to be action packed, and be able to control how the characters moves around the monster (to dodge the attacks, or aim at a weak point, ...), which kind of physical attacks to use (strong but slow, or weak but quick, for instance), trigger some combos, etc.
Anyway, Legend of Mana had a fun real time battle system I think, especially when you played with a friend (since, as usual in Mana games, the AI was plain stupid..). And it would probably work quite well in an online game (with a large set of battle skills to learn, + the various collecting-some-items-to-create-some-other-items systems, and the pet-monsters thing, and so on...)
Seriously, I wouldn't be surprised at all if that World of Mana project involved some online gaming, and borrowed some (most?) gameplay elements from LoM.

[Damien]

I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't live up to expectation

[Entr0pi3]

No need to be so pessimistic already...

[Damien]

No need, but lots of reason :<

[seedofmana]

I have to agree, the Mana series hasn't really done itself justice since Seiken Densetsu 3. Legend of Mana looked amazing but played badly and Sword of Mana lacked atmosphere. I hope World of Mana is something special, but I can't help but feel it won't be...

[Lord Golbez]

The Mana series only did itself justice with Secret of Mana. One might even say the game was something of a fluke, SD3 may be similar but in terms of gameplay, story, and simple charm it blows by comparison. Still....I yearn for a true sequel to SoM of the same quality.

[seedofmana]

I think if Seiken Densetsu 3 got a proper American and European release it would have obviously gotten a much more appreciated reception. I do agree that in the long run people would have prefered Secret of Mana to it but I don't think Seiken Densetsu 3 is given hardly any of the credit it deserves. No matter what anyone says, playing ROMs just isn't the same, especially when they're poorly translated.

[SpunkyMonkey]

I Second that!! I love that game. Its one of the few that I will and can play over and over. I love the game play, music, story, characters, and its humor. I wish more like it were out there.

The Mana series only did itself justice with Secret of Mana. One might even say the game was something of a fluke, SD3 may be similar but in terms of gameplay, story, and simple charm it blows by comparison. Still....I yearn for a true sequel to SoM of the same quality.

[Slashley]

-- Boooring! If an RPG plays in real time, I want it to be action packed, and be able to control how the characters moves around the monster (to dodge the attacks, or aim at a weak point, ...), which kind of physical attacks to use (strong but slow, or weak but quick, for instance), trigger some combos, etc.
--

This will happen when you develop the lagless internet.

Making the game completely client side = way too easily exploitable.
Making your char on your comp and monter on server (just like WoW!) will mean that you will miss your weak point because the monster isn't where you see it to be
Making both the char and the monster on serverside (just like RO!) will create lots of desynch. Even if the monster is where you see it, you probably aren't there to hit it

[Entr0pi3]

Hmm... I see how lags could be an issue. But online FPS are full real-time, and still playable (provided your connection - and PC - is good enough. Expensive, but not unfeasible).
The massive aspect of MMORPG (as opposed to the relatively small set of players on a FPS map) could be a problem, I guess. But it's not as if a single player was interacting with all the characters/monsters/maps at the same time. Only needs to compute (and upload/download) what happens in the player's close vicinity. It's not that difficult to optimize. Actually I've heard Guild Wars does that to some extent.
If FPS can be played online in full real time, I don't see why action RPG couldn't... Hell, Phantasy Star Online is real time (with combo and such). Not really massively multiplayer, though.
The problem with massively multiplayer games is not client side, obviously, but maybe it would be too difficult for a single server to keep up with all that data in real time...? Nothing good distributed computing couldn't solve, still, I think. But obviously more servers = more expensive... Unless you trust the players' computer to do part of the job...?

What do you mean with the client side being too easily exploitable? Cheating? Would be much more difficult in a console game than in a computer game, though. And you don't have to have everything happening client side (just the heavy calcultations). Could check a few parameters on the server (crypted security keys or whatever) from time to time, to make sure some essential game data hasn't been tempered with.
Or maybe you meant people setting up their own gaming server ? (easier to do if most of the game is already on the CD, I guess) But if the official servers provide valuable enough additional content (animations and such), shouldn't happen too much... I think? And even if players don't use the official server, at least they paid for the game... (+some games, like Guild Wars, don't have you pay to play online, anyway...)
To me looks like it's more a matter of trusting the player (+ a matter of business model), than a matter of technical limitations, anyway.

[Slashley]

You answered your own question. M as in MASSIVE puts a huge strain on things. You don't see an FPS game with 200+ players running in a small area. Now, also insert 100+ or optimally 300+ monsters into the same area. It's simply not doable with current technology, not without lag or MASSIVE resources to prevent it. Unless the US is willing to give up their entire military budget, I don't see such an MMORPG happening.

And PSO wasn't about positioning, or was it? I never played that! Well, seeing as it wasn't a proper MMORPG (or something?) it's possible to have positioning have something do with it.


And yes, I meant cheating. If something is handled clientside, it CAN and WILL be exploited. You can NEVER EVER NEVER and allow me to stress NEVER trust your clients in the MMORPG business. They WILL exploit it. Exploiting leads to unhappiness in the non-exploiting community. An unhappy playerbase is never good business unless they're addicted (hello drugs, not MMORPGs!).

Furthermore your idea of handling calculations clientside doesn't seem feasible to me. The most complex formulas/calculations used in MMORPGs are damaging formulas, which have what? At most six variables? By the time the server would provide the info to the client and received the done calculation it could've done it five times by itself. The problem is the sheer amount of those short calculations.
If you turn calculation power -> bandwidth, you'll save some processing power but add to the already tremendous bandwidth consumation plus the downside of slowed gameplay. Also, as I said, letting clientside do anything exploitable will lead to trouble. Unless they're using something you have completele control over (meaning your computer or something similar) somebody will always find a way to exploit anything clientside. Encrypted security keys? Will be hacked, emulated, exploited.

[Kakeru]

No PSO was not "Massive Multiplayer" and was just an Online RPG. In order to actually fight anything online, you had to make a team in which the maximum number of players you could have on one team, is 4. And on top of that then entire game is on the CD so there's very little date sent back and fourth aside from that of the other players. But as anyone who played the original PSO knows, it was completely exploited and destroyed by hackers and the large ammount of players who downloaded and used those hacks.

Technically speaking, Guild Wars is also, not an MMORPG. The only time you encounter other players is when you're in a city. Out in the field everything is run by your computer from what I understand. The only way you see other real people out in the field is if you're in a party with them.

Honestly, I think the only way to keep people from cheating would be extremely strict enforcement of the rules. Meaning even someone merely acused of hacking would be instantly investigated and punished. For that to work, you would need admins who were actually serious about their job, unlike FF:XI Game Masters, who don't seem to give a shit. On top of that, you would need to allow them full access to your computer while playing so they could search for anything tampering/altering the game play. Actually, I heard Guild Wars Admins are pretty good.
Mostly though, I don't think it's possible to completely eliminate cheating, though I do think it wouldn't really be that hard to keep it to a minimum.


Also I'd like to see monsters get larger and actually LOOK stronger as you level up. Unlike in FF:XI in which you fight pugils and crabs for most of the game.

[Entr0pi3]

The confusing thing about Guild Wars is that despite it not being truly MM, it uses the same kind of gameplay system than traditional MMORPG (auto fight, + charging a few skills from menues or keyboard shortcuts from time to time), instead of PSO's more real time (somewhat OoT-like) battle system. Both games are pretty similar though : only in cities can you see and interact with every other players, and form small teams that will then roam through their own little personal battlefield together (and complete quests and such). Although there is also a special PvP mode in Guild Wars. But I think the number of teams fighting against each other is limited (and this gameplay mode is limited to special arena-like areas)
I'm not sure why the developers sticked with the traditional MMORPG approach. Since it's not so massively multiplayer, shouldn't Guild Wars servers be able to handle a slightly more interactive battle mode?

I've heard there could be quite a lot of cheating in online FPS too, but I don't know to which extent (and if particular solutions have been developed to prevent it). I suppose these kinds of online games are mostly run client side, aren't they?
...
Reminds me of that new online FPS/Diablo-like/RPG? currently in development, Hellgate London. Although it won't be massively multiplayer, they say it will allow to form large groups to play together in a specific level.
I realize I don't really care if an RPG is massively multiplayer. You can't interact with all the players at the same time anyway. A few cities where you can meet all the players, then small groups of players fighting together or against each other in some specific areas, is perfectly fine for me. I'd rather have some exciting action-filled gameplay along with some pals, than a click-and-wait session in the middle of a crowd of l4m0rz I don't even care about.

[seedofmana]

Whoooo. So, you guys think the next mana game will be online?

[Slashley]

--Meaning even someone merely acused of hacking would be instantly investigated and punished. For that to work, you would need admins who were actually serious about their job, unlike FF:XI Game Masters, who don't seem to give a shit.--

I -think- (never having played FFXI) that the problem is, again, resources. When you have hundreds of reports coming in constantly, you just can't keep up. In fact, that kinda makes you go ignorant on the issues. "Like I could stop them all."

Also, I don't think gamemakers have thought of these issues when making games. The logs servers create seem to be shit. Or maybe it's because the logs would be massive if they were extensive on what happens

[Kakeru]

Well my experiance with FF:XI moderators has been that they'll come and listen to what you say, but they won't do anything about it.
I mean I watched a guy try to MPK (monster player kill for those who don't know the term) the party I was in and when I talked with an admin about it nothing happened to him.
On top of that, there are players whose only purpose is to make Gil, then sell it for real money. This violates the User Agreement. SE hasn't done much about it. They've banned 800 people, but that hasn't done anything. The people who play the game KNOW who these gil sellers are, 100% sure of it, and SE does nothing to them. The major problem is that these Gil sellers jack up the prices on items that should be cheap to millions of Gil. Which I'll have you know is hard enough to come by. Many of these items are only obtained through fighting Nortorious Monsters that only spawn every so often (like 3 hours for example) and these Gil Sellers camp them in large groups so that even if a real player needed to camp the NM for the item, he would never get it because his chances are 1:18.
[/rant]

As for the hundreds of reports, I've never had to wait in a line to talk to a Game Master. They've always been immediately available, so while I may just be getting lucky it doesn't seem to me like their getting many reports.



(BTW Slashley, do I still have that account on your FTP? or a better question, Do you still have an FTP?)

[Slashley]

(BTW Slashley, do I still have that account on your FTP? or a better question, Do you still have an FTP?)

No FTP server running. If you're looking for anything specific I can try to find it and set up a server though.

[Kakeru]

Nah I was just curious if there was any reason for me to install my FTP program again~

[Slashley]

Sure there is, if you're looking for something, that is

[WaWard]

I am overhearing rumours that there might be a secret of mana remake. Word is there's a successor to the psp coming up and it'll be made for that system.

Wow

[Damien]

I am overhearing rumours that there might be a secret of mana remake. Word is there's a successor to the psp coming up and it'll be made for that system.

Wow

Seedofmana called it at the very start of 2G5. Definitely has an uncle who works for Square.

[Fei Ayanami]

Prophecies coming true like mad this year.

[Lord Golbez]

Knowing Square, they actually did start development that long ago.

[Damien]

I think Ward is pranking us and this was the actual original post...

Who remembers Squaresoft's Secret of Mana? I run the biggest website dedicated to it at www.planetnintendo.com/secretofmana so check it out if you remember playing it. What did you lot make of it?

Eh, I usually don't approve of that kind self-promotional links, but I must say the site is indeed very well documented (I had never seen the German anime ad anywhere before for instance!). A bit slow-loading, but still one of the best SoM fan-site I've seen in a long while.

The PSP has only just been released at this point as well

EDIT: Yup
http://web.archive.org/web/200505080623 ... .php?t=322
Waward spreading FAKE NEWS!

[Lord Golbez]

He edited the first post of a thread from 2005? Gotta give him points for creativity.

[WaWard]

An SG 2G5 exclusive!

[Damien]

2G17's finest 2G5 fake news.