Persona 5

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:59 pm

I conked out playing P5 AGAIN

Think I missed a cutscene this time. Have no idea what it is about this game that makes me so tired

I would prefer the series to stay turn based as well. It's kinda' the essence of JRPGs. Got lots of pseudo JRPG series already.

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:59 pm

True. Other RPGs tend to avoid straight dungeon crawler aspects by the inclusion of towns and such. I would also regard this up as "backward" though because it would be getting rid of something that makes Persona unique in favor of something generic to RPGs. If they replaced the P3 system it should be with something equally unique.

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:56 pm

HKK wrote:
Doom wrote:The SMT formula when it comes to combat is still stuck in the 90s, unfortunately. It's enjoyable but so much about it is outdated and clunky. Makes it difficult to integrate with a modern narrative aesthetic.
Disagree with everything here. We have enough action RPGs. What SMT continues to do fills its niche. IMO too many jrpgs have gone from command based to action based and it's disheartening.

You can have a turn-based system without artificial difficulty gimmicks. I never said get rid of it. That being said, this was a lazy post from me and comes off a bit contrarian, so you can ignore it.

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:02 pm

I'd probably prefer to get rid of some of the role death magic plays, but I don't consider it a major issue. I rarely use it and also rarely get wiped out by it. It may kill party members on occasion but there are enough defences that it usually doesn't give me a game over and if it does I can adjust to prevent it from happening repeatedly in the same places.

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:09 pm

It's not even that. It's the grindy philosophy that doesn't present a genuine, persistent challenge IMO. Even on the hardest difficulty, the combat requires little thinking. The strategy is straightforward. The main challenge is resource management. The game is always hardest at the beginning, when you don't have much of anything. Once you grind out some resources (items/Personas/whatever), you expand your options and are able to crawl for longer. One More is solid mechanically but not that deep. And once you stumble upon or fuse enough demons/Personas that cover all your weaknesses, and your recovery abilities outpace resource depletion, the challenge dissipates.

Of course I'm basically describing a lot of core elements, but really I think a shakeup is due. It's possible to do it without diverging too much from the MO of these games, but I haven't seen enough progress to my liking so far. They are getting by purely on the strength of the narrative. Note that other SMT games, which don't have the SL aspect, aren't as popular or acclaimed. Does this strike you as a coincidence? Within the franchise as a whole, Persona has the ingredients to provide the best experience to the broadest audience, but you can't say this is due mostly to the combat. You just gave an example of that yourself a few posts back.

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:19 pm

I never found SMT games grindy. I just love the formula I guess and have never had a problem with it. I think it's also limiting to say the series lacks challenge when it also depends on your alignment. I dunno, I just never had that problem and have always enjoyed the process. I think the SMT formula is the funnest in RPGs and I can never get enough of it. I've always liked the battles too. I think resource management is great though? It's the core challenge of SMT and what makes the battle systems interesting. Given that they're traditionally dungeon crawlers, resource management being the main challenge is kind of the point.

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:23 pm

I tend to think Persona has better gameplay, not just better narrative, even though core mechanics really are the same. Regardless, I like grinding as an option to overcome difficulty. I'd probably be inclined to agree with you that difficulty skews too much to the early parts of the game. Maybe late too, where enemies with no weaknesses and skills that can't be resisted become more common, but definitely weaker in the middle parts.

I don't generally grind for levels in Persona, but I do grind for money, which results in some level grind.

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:30 pm

That's my point. For a series that is renown for difficulty, the recent Persona games are not really difficult at all once you get past the beginning hump. Resource management isn't the problem. Grinding isn't the problem. A relatively simplistic strategic palette isn't the problem. But combine all those and the battles themselves lose their appeal toward the end of the game for me. They merely become the means by which to gather up more Personas to fill out the compendium, or to make subsequent battles even easier. And collectionism isn't really my main thing when it comes to RPGs, at least not anymore.

HKK: As a point of reference, Raidou 2 is still my favorite SMT in terms of combat. I know it's not strictly turn based, but to me, they struck the best balance of everything in that game. If you want strictly turn-based, then Nocturne still hasn't been topped for me, although I never got far enough in IV to dissect that game thoroughly.

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:45 pm

Not strictly turn based? Isn't Raidou pretty much pure action RPG? I forget, but I remember it as random encounters with battle transitions, but within battle you run around and use your sword and gun and can also summon demons to help.

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:53 pm

Lord Golbez wrote:Not strictly turn based? Isn't Raidou pretty much pure action RPG? I forget, but I remember it as random encounters with battle transitions, but within battle you run around and use your sword and gun and can also summon demons to help.

The game pauses when you are in the menu for abilities and items, so it's not 100% real time. And because most of the time, your performance in combat depends on setting the right demons and commanding them to perform the right abilities via the menu, it's not so mashy. But yes, it's closer to action than not.

Edit: I'm not typing so good tonight.

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:13 am

Doom wrote:That's my point. For a series that is renown for difficulty, the recent Persona games are not really difficult at all once you get past the beginning hump. Resource management isn't the problem. Grinding isn't the problem. A relatively simplistic strategic palette isn't the problem. But combine all those and the battles themselves lose their appeal toward the end of the game for me. They merely become the means by which to gather up more Personas to fill out the compendium, or to make subsequent battles even easier. And collectionism isn't really my main thing when it comes to RPGs, at least not anymore.

HKK: As a point of reference, Raidou 2 is still my favorite SMT in terms of combat. I know it's not strictly turn based, but to me, they struck the best balance of everything in that game. If you want strictly turn-based, then Nocturne still hasn't been topped for me, although I never got far enough in IV to dissect that game thoroughly.

Nocturne is my barometer as well and I think DDS1+2 have good difficulty. Especially 2. Modern Persona tries to go for a mainstream audience so I don't mind and even agree that it had a lower difficulty. That's the entire point of Persona: for people who don't play regular SMT. I think IV gets pretty hard especially with the right (wrong) alignment. I think it's best to take the series seperately. Persona is Persona at this point and SMT is SMT.

Raidou 2 is one of the most underrated SMT games and among the best of its generation but I never found its combat as fun as regular SMT press turn.

I think this is a case of preferences honestly. I don't know anyone who is an SMT vet who puts modern Persona on some difficulty pedastal. But I don't think an rpg has to be overly difficult to be fun.

I don't know a single SMT vet who makes this claim about modern Persona. Who considers them difficult?

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:39 am

SMT IV gets ridiculously diificult with Minotaur and Medusa. I didn't go much past that, be sure that was too absurd.

Doom · Post by **Doom** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:53 am

Pedestal? No need to move the goalposts. I'm just pointing out design deficiencies.

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:32 am

?

Didn't bring up pedestals

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:06 am

You said "difficulty pedestal."

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:16 am

Oh right. Just had time to re-read.

I'm not trying to move goal posts. I can see what you mean, but I disagree.

Speaking of design, not a fan of P5 negotiations at least so far. Currently lack the ability to scan abilities, so you don't know weaknesses/strengths. You can only negotiate if you hit a weakness. So you have to know the exact weakness just to negotiate. Which I don't find fun. I like going around collecting demons and being surprised with what kind of demon it is when it joins my party. This doesn't allow that and it also forces an extra step on the player. You can't just negotiate if you want to. Nope, you gotta find the weakness and it just doesn't feel right to me. If I'm playing SMT I want to be able to negotiate at any time I please. I basically feel limited with this and it's a complete downgrade.

This is ignoring that negotiations are tough as hell. It took me three or four battles before a Persona decided to join me and the one that did I had to negotiate with him three times in one battle because the questions and answers are too deep. And I have to figure out the demons personality. That said, I do like that at the same time because it's in line with older Persona games, so maybe I just gotta get used to it.

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 2:30 pm

I actually find the negotiations easier than other SMT games for the most part. They seem a slight bit more predictable. Regardless, there's a shortcut to negotiation. If you have them begging for their lives, you can just ask them to lend you their power and they will.

Still, I don't really care for negotiation, period, so it's not a highlight of the game for me at all.

I finished the first palace and am in May. My biggest complaint with the game is that it still seems to take a bit too much of my free time from me. It's actually starting to annoy me if I'm being honest. It's not that I'm not still addicted to playing, but I feel like they've somewhat ruined the balance in previous games taking so much free time away. I'd say the majority of time so far is decided for you or at least if the day isn't decided taken up by mandatory in dungeon days. Combining those with lots of story days that also take away ability to do anything even in the evening and it just doesn't leave much free time left.

Henchman #2 · Post by **Henchman #2** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:38 pm

Finally got to play the damn game today. I feel like the map is a bit overwhelming and also not really informative when you get to certain places.

Also, I don't remember P3/4 having this much exposition at the start, but I could be very wrong about that too.

Overall, very stylish, very cool. Will dump 10 more hours into this on the weekend and maybe it'll finally let me have free time

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:46 pm

8 hours in now and I've finally been able to do a few things of my choosing. Almost certain I'll never finish it though. Just too long and drawn out

Hopefully I'm wrong!

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:57 am

It's only been out since Tuesday and I've already sunk way more hours into it than I have into FFXV.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:18 am

I may play it in sections, like do one palace and then retire it until I've beaten another game. Just weary of spoilers (though I guess the game's been out in Japan for months now and I haven't gotten any of those).

Joei · Post by **Joei** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:23 am

If you have played previous persona / smt then the battles are a breeze. They go pretty quickly in this game. You can probably scan enemies later. Every social link is integrated into the story and gameplay in this- I love constantly being fed abilities from links.

At least this game gets right into it from the start instead of a long build up like in previous games.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:49 am

It's finally clicked with me today. I think I'm better at gaming in the daytime than late at night after work tbh.

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:54 pm

Joei wrote:If you have played previous persona / smt then the battles are a breeze. They go pretty quickly in this game. You can probably scan enemies later. Every social link is integrated into the story and gameplay in this- I love constantly being fed abilities from links.

At least this game gets right into it from the start instead of a long build up like in previous games.

So it's impossible to miss an s link in this one?

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:56 pm

That's definitely not true. I've already gotten S Links that are certainly missable. But they do all give some abilities beyond just boosting your fusion. Also, they do have a story sequence when you get each one that sort of integrates it into the story, but these sequences are pretty disposable in the sense that it wouldn't really take away from the plot to remove them.

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:05 pm

I was hoping there weren't missable s links because this game is so much bigger than p3/4 and going through town to find new ones would be a drag.

Joei · Post by **Joei** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:31 pm

I don't know i've not finished it. Getting around is so easy anyway.

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:01 pm

It definitely gets easier.

Ryuji > Yosuke

He's really sweet when you get to know him.

Also, did they take stuff out of the structure? I remember you being able to mess around during lunch in P3/4? But I can't here?

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:26 pm

I agree, battle-wise the battles mostly seem to be easier than P3/P4. That's balanced somewhat by the fact that failed negotiations can turn the tide of battle against you and the fact that there's no auto SP heal by returning to the 1st floor like in Tartarus, nor a Fox like in P4. You've pretty much gotta get by on consumables.

Which leads me into my next point - battle-wise it's on par or easier. Calendar planning wise, it's harder than P3 or P4 (especially P4, where it really isn't terribly hard at all). All the palaces require using 2 full days after you've gotten to the end of them. Besides that, I don't see that there's anyway to know ahead of time when a palace won't let you go through it in a single day. So it's very important to start the palaces early in this one, because you don't know how many days they will take ahead of time. That's somewhat important in P3 as well (less so P4, past the first dungeon because you can always grind money to pay the fox), but the schedule seems tighter here and tiredness puts a soft minimum on days in Tartarus, while there is a hard minimum on days in the palace due to story-based stuff. I still had plenty of free time after completing the second palace though, so I'm feeling less restricted now.

That said midway bosses in the palaces are mostly a joke and end bosses are not terribly hard. I haven't seen anything like the punishing Tartarus bosses of P3 and I would say from the two Palace bosses I've faced thus far, they are easier than the end of dungeon bosses in P4. Still, we're not talking Final Fantasy easy. These bosses still require some strategy. If all you do is hit and heal (which you can pretty much get away with in FF most of the time), you would probably lose. Not saying the strategy is anything that would be unfamiliar to Persona fans, but it's still more than in some run-of-the-mill RPGs/

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 6:54 pm

Yeah, the sim element is hard as fuck because there's no lunch time. So you have to choose wisely.

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:07 pm

It's also because they use up a ton of days (both after school + evening, even when there's no good reason it should be using up your evening) on preliminary story stuff before entering a palace.

I don't remember being able to do anything with lunch in P3 (other than getting invited at lunch time maybe), but P4 let you get some social link points by eating lunch with friends (not leveling up the link, but at least getting closer so you don't have to use so many "spend time" scenarios where you don't level up the link) and you can get maybe a couple times where you can skip classes to boost a link.
The only comparable helping extra stuff I see here is you can at least boost some social stats by reading on the train sometimes and on Sundays you can buy some social stat boosting juice that doesn't use up time (just pretty expensive). That doesn't boost your confidants but at least it's some less time you need to use on that stuff and social stats are, as always, prerequisites for some confidants.

Actually, while I don't remember doing anything at lunch in P3, P3 does have 3 periods and Tartarus only takes from 2 of them. I think the only thing you can do in the last period is study, but it's still something that helps the knowledge rankup more quickly.

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:48 pm

The sim thing is my favorite part of these games. I was so into 3 that I made an actual calendar to plan on what I wanted to do.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:34 pm

I've finally finished the first Palace/section of the game. Annoyingly, I cut it as close to the bone as possible for the expulsion date and used all the days chipping away at different things. Didn't know that when I chose the calling card option, another day would pass, bringing me to Day 0 and game over

I got the option of going back 10 days, but that's most of my play time today. Luckily, Is been saving in different files and I had one just two hours behind. Annoying having to play that two hours again, but I sped through as quick as I could and finished it in the end. Holy shit @ the boss

Joei · Post by **Joei** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:42 pm

I just rewatched the single persona 5 anime episode and realised it covers and expands on one of the throwaway mementos quests. It's great they chose that so nothing gets spoiled. You can get social links that will help with how you spend your time but yeah i'm constantly overwhelmed. Get the palaces done first Damien then enjoy the social stuff.

My friend who is 70 hrs in is still getting new social links. Jesus.

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:55 pm

70 hours in less than a week? I remember those days.

How do I watch this anime?

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:40 am

Joei wrote:I just rewatched the single persona 5 anime episode and realised it covers and expands on one of the throwaway mementos quests. It's great they chose that so nothing gets spoiled. You can get social links that will help with how you spend your time but yeah i'm constantly overwhelmed. Get the palaces done first Damien then enjoy the social stuff.

Do you lose the rest of the days after the Palace though? That's what I assumed.

Joei · Post by **Joei** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:38 am

Damien wrote:
Joei wrote:I just rewatched the single persona 5 anime episode and realised it covers and expands on one of the throwaway mementos quests. It's great they chose that so nothing gets spoiled. You can get social links that will help with how you spend your time but yeah i'm constantly overwhelmed. Get the palaces done first Damien then enjoy the social stuff.
Do you lose the rest of the days after the Palace though? That's what I assumed.

Nope you continue to the cut off point. Just the palace will be gone.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:41 am

Wish I knew that then (they probably said that, but there's a lot of text)

Annoyingly, I got a few things up to level 2 and even at my current point, they're now all still on level 1. I did feel ripped off when it skipped a day., Thought I'd planned it perfectly and wasted no time. I guess at least I got to see the lol u failed cutscene.

Katy came in from her hen weekend and watched me play for 5 minutes. "You just did a cross word and now they're talking about somebody sexually assaulting students? What the hell is this game?" I was barely able to explain

Joei · Post by **Joei** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:41 am

Get used to the cat telling you to sleep instead of being able to do social stuff!

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 10:41 am

Yeah that's already pissed me off a lot.

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 1:19 pm

The cat might be the worst Megaten character ever created and I want to kill it

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:55 pm

Persona is always adding these stupid mascot characters. How different is it from Teddy, really? Still better than Ken.

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:17 pm

Ken is cute, how dare you. The mascot of P3 was Aegis anyways. AKA, the best mascot not named Jack Frost.

Morgana sucks because unlike other mascot characters:

1. She goes everywhere with you and won't shut the fuck up. I do not need "HEY! LISTEN!!!" in my Megami Tensei, Atlus!

2. She tells you what to do and what you can't do and just invades the game and makes it feel limited.

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:29 pm

True, but I see the last one just as a gameplay thing more than a character thing. P4 makes you go to sleep instead of doing stuff when it wants to without any character telling you what to do. P4 doesn't do it as often though....

I wasn't saying Ken was the mascot. I was just being non sequitur. Yes, Aegis does indeed rule.

Calbrena · Post by **Calbrena** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:57 pm

Teddy is annoying as hell.

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:03 pm

Imagine if Teddy went everywhere with you, stayed in your room, commented on things you did in class, summarized items you examined, everything.

Lord Golbez · Post by **Lord Golbez** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:13 pm

Okay, when you put it that way, yeah, Morgana is annoying as hell. Still my best healer though, so usually in my party.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:51 pm

Yeah Morgana is more annoying and less endearing than Teddie.

Henchman #2 · Post by **Henchman #2** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:25 am

Yeah I'd rather pick Teddie > Morgana for furry mascots. More endearing and I suppose funnier than the cat.

I finished the first Palace today and I might follow suit with Damien's process - take a break from the game before I move onto the next section (albeit not as long as he's planning). So far I'm really glad the game's opened up a ton now and I'm at the weird stage of being unsure what stuff to upgrade/improve so I'm just doing a bit of everything and hoping for the best. Also man, the older games were never this frank about assault were they?

HKK · Post by **HKK** » Tue Apr 11, 2017 6:12 am

Hmm.

Couple things as I play more and get into the meat of the game.

Dungeon design - linear but interesting gimmicks. Nothing notable so far. Considering Atlus' penchant for excellent dungeon design, soemthing to look at as the game progresses.

Freedom - complete backstep from P3. In P3 you have multiple cycles through the day. While in 5 you are stuck with really one choice per day. This seems good at first because it makes things more tense. But then the next day you decide to go to the dungeon. In P3 you could prep. After school you have the choice of hanging out with an s link or going to a club or working a job or studying in the library. Right now in P5 I have items I want to sell for sweet cash to build up my compendium. Except I can't because by choosing "let's go to the dungeon today" it automatically goes to the rooftop and I can't do anything else that day. I can't prep and make choices. Combined with the fact that you can only do the dungeon after school and not in the evening like in P3/4 makes the game feels small and limited.

In P3 I made a literal calendar, in real life, for how I wanted to go through a week in that game. I can't do that in P5 and for this reason it's not as addictive. Less sim periods means less choice. The result is what appears to be a smaller, far more guided game. Right now with 12 days left until my deadline the only real choice is to beat the dungeon. Since there's only one real choice, it doesn't feel like a choice. This completely ruins the Persona 3 sim game structure because what makes it so fun is the balance between day (school) and night (dark hour). If you always have to choose between dungeoning and school, there is no balance and if there is no balance then the game loses its unique game structure and gameplay loop. Awful design.

Battles - very boring so far for a Megaten vet. So far the only silver lining is that sp healing items feel limited so I can't just beat the entire dungeon in one day.

Story and characters are great but the gameplay...I just don't know. Still fun, but it just feel limited to me. What were they thinking making you choose between doing the dungeon and studying/doing a part time job/s links? Bad design choice.